Julia Zemiro Asks 'Who Cares?' — E2 — Corey Tutt & Hayley McQuire

A Rational Fear

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This is the 2nd Episode of the monthly spin-off podcast from A Rational Fear — Julia Zemiro Asks 'Who Cares?'

Each month for the next 5 months on the A Rational Fear podcast feed, Julia will be interviewing change makers, civic leaders, and people who organise their communities and claim their power to discover the secrets to making good things happen.

This month Julia chats with:

Corey Tutt— An Indigenous mentor and STEM champion. He is the founder of DeadlyScience, an initiative that provides science books and early reading material to remote schools in Australia. Tutt is the 2020 NSW Young Australian of the Year, and a recipient of a 2021 Eureka Prize, the premier awards for science in Australia.

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also we hear from

Hayley McQuire — A proud Darumbal and South Sea Islander woman from Rockhampton, Central Queensland and a passionate advocate for Indigenous social justice and First Nations lead education. Her roots are in Indigenous community media, vocational training and Indigenous Affairs policy. She was selected and served for four years on the Youth Advocacy Group for the UN Secretary General's Global Education First Initiative to support young people around the world to advocate for their rights to education. In 2019 Hayley became and Obama Foundation Leader Asia-Pacific.

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If you enjoyed this please drop us a review on Apple podcasts:

https://podcasts.apple.com/au/podcast/a-rational-fear/id522303261

And subscribe to our Patreon so we can keep making shows like this for you:

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THANK YOU TO

Julia, Corey & Hayley
Rode Microphones
The Bertha Foundation
Jacob Round.
Jess Harwood for the amazing artwork.
and our Patreon Supporters.

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Transcribed by https://otter.ai

Bertha Announcement 0:00
This podcast is supported in part by the Bertha Foundation.

Julia Zemiro 0:04
I'm recording my part of Julia's Amuro asks, Who cares on the lands of the gunman? Gara and Darwell people, sovereignty was never ceded. We need a treaty. Let's start the podcast,

Dan Ilic 0:16
a podcast about politics for people who hate politics. This is Julia Zemiro asks, "Who cares?"

Julia Zemiro 0:27
Hello, Julia here. And yes, once a month for the next five months on the irrational fi podcast, feed, I'm going to be having conversations about getting active and showing you you have powers to make change in the world, and talking to civic leaders from all walks of life to find out how they got active. This month on the podcast, I'm talking with two people who know a great deal about indigenous led education. We know education isn't equal, it's often expensive, and our state schools certainly need more support. But for Indigenous kids and adults, education can be woeful, and the system can be wonderful for them. So I'm speaking today to two incredible leaders in this field. First up, proud Kamilaroi man, Corey tut is an indigenous mentor and stem champion. He's the founder of deadly science and initiative that provides science books in early reading material to remote schools in Australia. He's the 2020, New South Wales Young Australian of the Year. And he also recently won a eureka prize. If you're not familiar, the Australian Museum Eureka prizes are the country's most comprehensive National Science Awards. And they are excellent across the areas of research and innovation, leadership, science, engagement and school science. I'm just going to give you a bit of a trigger warning here. Cory does cover some heavy topics him losing his best friend, some letting you know that now, I started asking him about these awards and and what they mean.

Corey Tutt 2:07
These awards are fantastic accomplishments. And they're great for making my head feel a lot larger than what it is the circumference of my head is growing 15 centimeters since I've won these awards, but no all jokes aside, these awards are responsibility to me to make them accessible all kids so that they, you know, one day can see themselves in the picture. If you ask majority of the kids I work with, do you ever see yourself winning Eureka prize or the Young Australian of the Year award? They would probably say to you No way. So my role and my responsibility now is to go to these remote communities go to these schools, be a good example show that these kids can be part of the picture and picture of science and be part of that. And if I'm not doing that, then that award is just a waste on me because I need to be responsible with it in including the next generation of deadly scientists.

Julia Zemiro 3:04
you've engaged with over 90 schools around Australia. And there's been a 25% increase in engagement in STEM related subjects. You've given 28 Deadly Junior Science

Corey Tutt 3:16
Awards now are a couple of 100 of those out now.

Julia Zemiro 3:20
What I'm always interested in is that we say that people don't care. We think that people aren't doing anything we know full well that there's lots of incredible projects happening all over the place. But with you, Cory, I know that with you, you're someone who had an interest in science to begin with. But how did you really connect to science as a young kid,

Corey Tutt 3:42
I didn't have the best life growing up, I'd experienced my father leaving my mum at age two. And that's enough to sort of for a lot of kids off the rails, I guess. At eight years old, I witnessed a fatal accident. It was pretty tough. And it meant that I was never really in one place for very long. I grew up in the Illawarra region of New South Wales and South Coast is where I was born. But I also spent time in tumby Bay in South Australia. And I also spent time mangonia which is in the central Tablelands of New South Wales. So I've really been everywhere man. So I put a lot of my energy into reptiles and animals and things that I'd find around the place. That's always a really good way to make friends is that if you pick up a blue tongue lizard in the playground or home, people want to talk to you about it because it's a pretty bizarre thing to do. Because I moved around a lot it was very very hard for me to to get any structure in my life as a kid and and probably affected me as I it probably affected me in one or two ways. I was never satisfied with just been the mundane day to day I was always striving to achieve my dreams and I was driven as a real as a young kid I was driven nearly never really fit into the, you know, the notion that, that I couldn't do things that I didn't put my mind to. I wanted more of my life and I was pretty determined that I wasn't, if when I became a parent, I was never going to be the same. I was always going to be I was always going to do the things that my parents couldn't do for me.

Julia Zemiro 5:20
But your granddad had a lot to do with your interest in reptiles and reading.

Corey Tutt 5:24
Yeah, he did. He gave me a book called reptiles and color. And that was published in 1984, which is consequently, eight years before I was born, but I got it in about 1998. That book in particular was pretty raggedy, by the time it got to me and it was, you know, it had another little boy's signature and I was like, maybe Happy Birthday Billy assigned, but I don't care. His name out, wrote Corey. That book was really important for me, because when I was chasing those Water Dragons, and and I was reading that they could hold their breath underwater for an hour and things like that, in that book, I would sit there with a little stopwatch, and I would chase war drags into dams. And I would, you know, I'd time it, make sure it was right, you know. But yeah, these were things that I did when I was a kid. And I learned how to read off these books. So, you know, when other kids were reading the Hungry Caterpillar, I was just reading science books.

Julia Zemiro 6:17
And did you know at that time, did you make a link that that was science? Or was it just something that kids did? Where you grew up? Was it an indigenous experience,

Corey Tutt 6:28
I don't think it was an indigenous experience or, or a science experience and such it was, it was probably me trying to contend with the bad things in my childhood and invest my energy into something that was positive. You know, a lot of kids will like me when growing up like we we sometimes grow out of it, some of us don't. And I feel like I was always connected to the culture and people.

Julia Zemiro 6:54
Is it true that a career advisor once said to you that kids like you don't go to uni, and they should stick to a trade,

Corey Tutt 7:00
I don't wish any ill harm or, or any bad wields his career advisor, he was just trying to help me, I think he, I think it was yelled, I'm going to give this kid a whack with a metaphorical stick. And that will be the thing that that drives him to do more. And it probably had the opposite effect. To be honest, when I sat across this career advisor, and I sat in this over, you know, this, this poorly designed chair that was, you know, had this poor fabric on it. And I looked across at him and I said, I wanted to be a zookeeper or wildlife documentary. And the third option was ABC sports commentator, because I thought it was pretty easy. And I could find the other two. I think at that moment, I felt very determined that I would not, you know, I would not take his advice, because I know if I, if I had worked in a trade, I would have been hopeless at it. And I really was desperate to become a zookeeper. And as you do you troll through social media when you're a kid, especially when you're a teenager, born in my time, which was MySpace, and Facebook. And when it first came out, and I saw this crazy woman with a rifle standing above a snake, and she was in this place called Boyup. Brook. And she was just, you know, a really nice lady who runs this wildlife sanctuary that that's just killing Snakes on a property. And I was like, Ah, I ended up organizing to go over to Rigali and Boyup Brook, which is 3885 kilometers from my house, didn't contact my mother or family members for three weeks. And I went over there and look, that moment for me, I, as soon as I got over there, I was introduced to this, this woman who was kind of older and her name was Norma, and she had a husband called Jim and his dog named Holly and Norma and Jim, were the first people in my life that had ever shown me love that was unconditional. But, you know, they were just proud that I was going in and working this wildlife sanctuary. And I remember that, you know, I didn't have even make toasts. To be honest, I couldn't even make you a cup of tea. And normally didn't judge me or anything like that. Normally, people would sort of laugh at someone if they didn't know how to do that. But she kind of knew that I, I didn't get shown a lot growing up, because why what how could I, you know, my mom was a single mom. And we were, you know, we were sort of moving around a lot. You know, she didn't learn those things. So how could she possibly teach me and how was he there? I was 16.

Julia Zemiro 9:41
So you've gone there all by yourself.

Corey Tutt 9:43
I've gone there all by myself. And yeah, I get a bit sad when I talk about Jim and omocha said now pass, but they were the first people that I ever met that, that didn't care. They didn't care about the baggage. I didn't care that I was from Dapto. They didn't care that I was indigenous. You know, they cared about me as a person, and from that moment from working at that wildlife sanctuary, and by the time I came back and started at narrow Wildlife Park, Jim and Norma sent me messages every single week until April last year, telling me how proud they were. They followed my journeys, they, you know, they rode the highs, and they stuck by me with the lows. And I will never ever forget what they did for me as a 16 year old and but you know, I fast forward and I'm, I'm back in narrow and I'm working at shore haven to

Julia Zemiro 10:35
how did you get that job? How did you know to find that we use looking through for jobs? Or was it a word of mouth thing

Corey Tutt 10:42
someone had, had bumped into me that worked at Taronga Zoo, and they were very keen to have me. But unfortunately, I lived in narrow, and I lived very, very far away from Mosman. And I, you know, I made the decision that it was going to be too hard because I had my red pays, but it wasn't like I couldn't drive up from now every day. So I applied for volunteer position at narrow Wildlife Park and Shoalhaven Zoo. And I remember the first day I had there, and I just come back from boy out broke, I'd come back from Western Australia, I had all this experience that, you know, I fought that I was, you know, not, I thought I was just really confident and I was really happy. And you know, it was easily the the most like it was the happiest morning in my life so far that I remember it because I got up at 5am I was meant to start at age, I got up at 5am I cooked a massive breakfast. I wore a button up shirt, which I was so proud. Like, I was just like, you know, for me, it was i i brought new shoes I you know, I had saved up to this was my first day as a zookeeper and the start of everything for me. And I remember I was sitting there and I was sitting under the, you know, under the walkway there and I was waiting for the head keeper to turn up and he turns up and he goes, Why are you so early? And I was like, because I'm keen. I'm very keen to get started, like, let's go, let's get into it. And he's like, no, no, no, settle down. And, you know, he, you know, him and I have friends now. But we had a we had a running battle. He often called me names, often, yeah, often told me that I shouldn't do zoo keeping and, and things like that. But, you know, again, I was determined to prove him wrong. You know, I was so determined to prove him wrong and get myself a zoo, a paid position and a zoo keeping uniform. And the day that the owner gave me my first narrow Wildlife Park shirt, I've still got it today in my cupboard. And because it was an our wildlife park back then, and it looked like Swiss cheese, and it had so many holes in it. I even had 10 spots because of how many holes that had in this shirt. And I was so proud of that. It was I've done it, you know, I've done it. This is the thing that it was it was my dream. I loved it. You know again, sometimes Julia that things happen and life can slip quickly, you know, change on it can change in a second then I'd had a best friend that had volunteered with the zoo. And he him and I started at the same time and he he eventually got kicked out because he he had sort of had some issues at the zoo and like it was the first time I'd met someone that was on my level that I was I was friends with and you know we we got along really well we actually got like got a similar tattoo on our left shoulder. You know we weird we're gonna move in together and because you know we're gonna do the zoo keeping thing and we had all these plans but then he had committed suicide and he had hung himself in a house that we're meant to move into. And

Julia Zemiro 14:08
sorry to hear that Corey that must have been a horrible thing to witness.

Corey Tutt 14:11
It changed everything for me. It changed everything for me and it was the second time in my life that I'd experienced death at a really young age and and not just you know older people actual young people dying and it hit me a lot harder than the accident that I'd witnessed when I was a kid because I was an adult now I was 18 What do you do when you're a baby face a 10 year old when you've you've lost your best mate and I think that you know the things I ignored at the zoo like the low pay rates the over hours we work the you know the things you have to deal with that, you know that zoo keepers have to deal with on a daily basis that aren't you know, there aren't glamorous, the zoo, the zoo life is not glamorous at all. Those are things that I decide that I, I didn't like that much anymore. I didn't have the motivation. I was struggling with my why, why am I doing this? Why was this my passion and you know, even seeing a blue tongue lizard just didn't you know, I get so much energy even now when I see a cool animal that I haven't seen in ages. And I lost that. And that is a really scary thing that is like losing, you know, it's like looking in the mirror and seeing someone completely different. I saw an ad in the the Illawarra mercury. I feel a bit stupid now talking about it. But I got in my best low suit, which was my year 10 formal suit at 18. And I got off to this guy's house and I rang up and he said, you've got an interview on Monday. So I went to his house. And he I walked in and I had a cup of tea in his eye. So you sat in Monday, and I like, what, what and I worked out quite later that I was the only person that applied. So I felt a bit stupid wearing my formal suit and to give the listeners a brief description of what my formal suit looked like. I was a massive Good Charlotte fan, where I had white volleys, white belt, black pants, white suspenders, and a white tie in a white hat. And it was a bit it was a bit of a good child. And so it's a bit of a punk. So I wore that to the alpaca

Julia Zemiro 16:22
interview and what was the job you're going to be a shear of

Corey Tutt 16:25
alpacas is no an alpaca handler.

Julia Zemiro 16:27
I handle up bright

Corey Tutt 16:29
James had been a bit creative with the title. Because he had had no like he had no people applying for this job. Wow. Anyway, we I get there and it's my first day. So the first packet that comes out, they show me how to put it down safely they go this is how you boil it down safely cuz you got to tie them down. And to show them safely. And I'm like, Oh, yep, got this. I've been feeding a formula crocodile for the last year and a half. Um,

Julia Zemiro 16:56
you know, thanks. I've

Corey Tutt 16:57
got I've got it. Yeah, it's gonna be fine. And little did I know that the first alpaca that I'll go and she would headbutt me in the face, and crack my cheekbone. And I'm crying like I'm bawling my eyes out, like trying not to cry, but I'm more crying but I'm fine. You know, James asked me if I'm right. And he could see my he could see my face, like swelling up. Little did I know that that moment with James would be my unofficial counseling where he, he was like the father, I never had in the sense that he was someone I could talk to that I was stuck sitting next to for 12 hours a day, in the car driving between jobs. And in time, time went slow. When when my best friend had time was going very, very fast. And he slowed it down for me. And I think that sharing saved my life. If it wasn't for James, I don't think I would be here. Like that's a really tough thing to comprehend. Because if I hadn't met him at that time, at that point in my life, would he have had the impact on me that he has? Probably not.

Julia Zemiro 18:05
When did deadly science come into play? When's that sort of starting up in your head?

Corey Tutt 18:10
When deadly science started, I was working as an animal technician at the University of Sydney and I started talking to these kids in Redfern and Waterloo. And we'll talk about any everything I would, you know, I'd show them some of the stuff that I was doing. I'll tell them about the researchers, I would show them on my iPhone, all this science stuff that you know was going on. And they were just so intrigued. They loved them. They were so you're and the moment that I was doing that I felt the love again that I had when I was at the zoo the days where I was so happy that I nothing could change anything for me like I was so in like I was so in the zone. And one of the kids said to me is how come I didn't get these opportunities? And this is like this is deadly. And this is science? How come I didn't get these opportunities. And, you know, I, I sort of thought about it. And then I started Googling remote schools and, and just I found out that our schools are just completely under resourced with STEM. And we naturally told Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander kids that sport and art are the only ways to be successful. And how about I just send you some books and this one school had 15 books in its whole school. And I ended up you know, going to Demyx and dropping down a k gets a grant of solid hard cash. And I purchased so many books that I could barely carry them out of the shop. And I sent those books at school. And I it was it was something in me that clicked because there was one school that that said hey, how about you send books to my school? My friends over here because we need more science books and more equipment and things like that. And I started a second job I worked at the handrolled pet hotels up at Duffy's force and I scrubbed and cleaned candles, I acted as a receptionist. So I probably act as a security guard at times as well. I worked really hard for a number of months I, I did things like, you know, jobs for mates, I sold some of my possessions. You know, I, I did things like that I worked extra hours. I think I sold my TV at one point to pay for these books. And then it was married and large. And actually, I met a friend, Dr. Karl. And he gave me some books. And then Mary and largers. Like you should set up a GoFundMe because people would people donate to this, you know, people like want to help you like,

Julia Zemiro 20:41
GoFundMe is such a great way to get something started. I mean, everyone's happy to chip in 10 or $20. And then if everybody does it, then you can really make something of it.

Corey Tutt 20:51
And yeah, little did I know why before like I was, I started putting it online, what I was doing, and I like at that point, I probably sent about 2000 books off, or so putting it online. And I, you know, I put this GoFundMe in place, and I was happy with just 500 bucks to be honest, because I was spending so much money on books and things. And I ended up becoming friends with this thing, this fella called Brian Cox on Twitter. And he was all right, like, you know, he's right. Yeah, he's nice. And he gave me some books. And I met him. And I didn't really know the protocol. I didn't coined Professor Cox or anything like that as a Braun.

Julia Zemiro 21:35
If you're not sure who he's talking about, it's Brian Cox, of course, from television, and him and I worked together on stargazing, and yeah, that was, that's what Twitter is for Cory, isn't it? You just go, why not just ask, he can only say no,

Corey Tutt 21:52
I gave him a blackfella handshake. And I'm not sure he was ready for that. But, you know, it grew from there. And I, I had this email come up on my phone, and I was like, and I remember really well, you have been nominated for Young Australian of the Year and I'm what, what the hell is that? Wow, I didn't even know what it was. And I ended up going and I sort of said to my mom, I'm like, you know, mom, I'd really like you to come with me, you know, to the award ceremony because I feel like you deserve to see your son and or your daughter, you know when saying worthwhile and and I wanted to bring it because I I just wanted her to I just wanted her to have a proud moment. You know, she's she hasn't always had the best and you know, and she came along and and Gladys read my name out. I went up i waddled up the stairs because I was very excited. I was very nervous. And I sat down and I handed my honor roll to my mom. I'm like, This is yours. And you know, I was gonna be honest, Julie, I was gonna have a couple of cheeky freebies and say, Wow, well done. pat myself on the back. But before I knew it, my Gladys Virgie Clinton had read my name out again. And she is like, and the youngest strolling is for New South Wales, Cory Todd, and it's like, I got up on stage and I'm like most boot shoes be kind to your mum. Yeah, and it was just like, my life changed from that moment.

Julia Zemiro 23:23
It's true that an award like an Australian of the Year young Australian, the it brings incredible opportunity, but baggage as well. Sometimes it's a big responsibility. And you say your life changed in what ways?

Corey Tutt 23:35
One, I had a camera in my face. When the time I got dragged. As soon as I got off stage, I didn't get to say anything to my partner had to deal with the expectation of this looming event where I was up against ash body, the world number one in tennis.

Julia Zemiro 23:53
What was another Australian of the Year? Well, she

Corey Tutt 23:56
was a finalist, she was the Queensland Australian of the Year and a finalist for the National one. And to be honest, I, I don't think I handled it as well as what I could have. But, you know, the the thing is, is that you only get to do these things once and I quickly learned that I could utilize my award and, and the trophy and stuff and I can go out to schools and I could put a bit of gaffer tape of my name, which sounds really bizarre. And I could let kids hold it and I could let them tell me why they should be the Australian, the and the answer is we're I'm kind of my mom. I'm kind to you know, my people in the playground. I, I, you know, I do the right thing. And, and these are the reasons why they deserve to be and there's the reasons why I deserve to be as well and everyone so

Julia Zemiro 24:46
lately, you said something before, it's very interesting. You said we often expect that Indigenous kids will thrive in sport or art. There's this notion that but that other stuffs too hard or beyond that. that must be met you sign. I mean, it's just a ridiculous thing to think, isn't it?

Corey Tutt 25:04
I remember I had a remote school once, contact me, and it was the teacher from that school. And I, you know, as I do I normally talk to the principal and I say, what do you need, and this principal turn around and told me that don't bother sending resources here, because our kids will never learn. And it's, you know, and I'm like, Why is this person in a job, and I had a quite a big extensive argument with this principle. Problem, or at least give these kids a chance, you know, lease, work with them, why try and work with them don't occupy a space where you are, you know, you are trying to mentor these kids into a future, but you will not accept resources because you don't think your kids deserve them. So it's never been easy. I've made mistakes along the way. Like, I've like anyone.

Julia Zemiro 25:55
I think if you don't make mistakes, you don't learn and at least it's worth trying. And stuffing it up sometimes, because, you know, it's pretty hard having an argument with a principal and I toured high schools doing Shakespeare in high schools when I was 27. And did two years of at different schools, you know, all over the all throughout the year, you know, driving it all van in all four of us and, and put up 200 chairs and do Shakespeare for kids. And, you know, you'd walk into some schools, and it's so funny, the vibe you would get from a head teacher or a principal would absolutely tell you what that school was about. And, yeah, I mean, some of the we just go, you know, and say hopeless, no, don't don't get any of it. You thinking, wow, well, we're here, we're gonna do it anyway. But let's surprise you. And always at the end of the show, always a teacher would come up and say, I cannot believe when you ask for volunteers, that that particular kid put his or her hand up, because they could do anything and you thinking, Yeah, well, maybe because they used to, they're in a new environment with new people.

Corey Tutt 26:57
So me also, like the T, like, teachers are great, they're worth their weight in gold, but they can quickly become burnt out. And I quickly found because of the lack of resources and support, and it's it flows down. So any of those teachers I actually have a lot of sympathy for. Because if you're burnt out that much, then it's taken a while for you to get to that point, because most teachers are starting off to make things better for our kids. And, and, you know, like, there was moments along the way, especially that after I won, you know, the the award that I had started a new job two weeks in, and I literally won that award, the second week, I was there. So all of a sudden, I was, you know, the highest achieving staff member within, you know, and this was like, you know, I'm really sorry, I can't do my job right now. Because I have to go and do this thing with SPS or deleting this ABC. And I love talking to the media, like I love it. Because I get to talk about these kids in the work. But then there was this expectation that I do my job, but also the other people in my year, especially at my employer saying, no, no, we want you to do this media thing. But we don't want to fund deadly science and we don't want to fund you. But we want you to do this media thing. And, you know, I think I've gotten better at enjoying the moment more. So when when I won this Eureka this time around, I was actually the calmest I've ever been. Because I knew that everything I've gone through to this moment right now has been for a reason. And now my reason is and my why is to help inspire these kids to be to be good people, and hopefully tomorrow be good scientists.

Julia Zemiro 28:48
Absolutely. Where's it at now? Deadly science. So what I suppose what's next for it? Or is there do you see an end and then you go and do something else?

Corey Tutt 29:00
That's a really tough question. But I like next to deadly science is that I've just hired two or three new people that, you know, I've only had, like, I've only had the one employee and that wasn't me. And I had to learn. I started paying myself, which is something that I never thought could be a thing. Yeah. Even though I was putting all this hours in, so I'm learning how to be a boss. Now I'm learning how to be the difference between being a caring boss and being someone that that needs to leave as well. And also someone that you know, let someone else take over the steering wheel for a bit because, you know, as a friend, Dr. Carr would say, micro sleeps can get you at any time. But for me, it's um, you know, I I'm starting to transition deadly science into getting more voices in so that he can, he can be a sustainable entity on its own, and I can focus on the good stuff I do. In cosmic vertigo with Carly noon and, and zooming the kids and, you know, just enjoying, like, when you do something like deadly science, there's three things that happen. You find your, you find yourself doing way too many hours, because you're so passionate. It's like being it's like having the latest Harry Potter book and you want to stay up and read as much as you can, but you're tired. But also you, you get an appreciation for what is out there. And also, the third one is that you burn out, you burn out very, very easily. And there's not many people that are going to pick you up when you burn out. So you need to support yourself with the people that can. And for me, I don't really want to be sitting in the seat of CEO in 10 years time. I want one of my deadly scientists to be sitting in there and I want it to be so good that it employs them. And they can continue to support the next generation beyond me and if I'm if I'm still around, and I'm sure I will be. I hope that I'm there to support them. And I'm there that I'm that person pick them up when they're burnt out.

Julia Zemiro 31:15
Thank you so much, Corey. Certainly 30 years of age already done so much. And yeah, I particularly love that comment at the end about burnout. You know, it's you can reach incredible heights in your work and in your life. And there's always going to be lows and in betweens, but burnout is a real issue. And when you work that hard off your own bat, you've got to look after yourself and put yourself first sometimes and I want to give out the lifeline number for anybody who might need it. One Three double 114 is a number if anything came up for you listening to that interview one three double 114 And that's a lifeline

Dan Ilic 31:58
what up Jay Z asked who cares? Sure, boy, Jay Z makes nice. No bad Jay Z jewelers zero. This is Julia zero asks, Who cares?

Julia Zemiro 32:08
Next up, I'm talking with Haley McGuire. She's a proud damsel and South Sea Islander woman from Rockhampton. She's got a passion for working with young people to be critical and active drivers in their own education ecosystem. Where Indigenous ways of knowing being and doing are embedded and tied to the aspirations of both indigenous nations and their young people. To drive this work. She co founded the National indigenous youth education coalition, which is a growing collective of Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander young people to reclaim their indigenous rights to education. She's also an Obama Foundation leader in the Asia Pacific. But I started asking her about she was once a presenter at her local Mary radio station in Rockhampton.

Hayley McQuire 33:03
Yeah, well, actually, that was my first introduction to doing real I guess community, grassroots work. And, you know, as a millennial, I think we often get pictured as we don't even like to do phone calls. And that was definitely me. And so doing community radio forced me to actually speak to people, the under text message, and it's really built really foundational communication skills that I'm so thankful for.

Julia Zemiro 33:32
Did you have a good experience of education growing up?

Hayley McQuire 33:37
I think it was overall, positive, you know, education for, like, my family and for my parents was a priority. Because it was seen as that tool that we know that me and my siblings could use to, you know, support ourselves in the long run. But there are times when I look back on my educational experiences. And you see that, yeah, there are some things where he could see the inequity. And a lot of that has really come in hindsight, not so much when you're in the moment. Just little things like during my work experience, and in high school, and I wanted to be a teacher, I went back to my old primary school, you just see, like, the little differences in how kids are being treated or like the different expectations of Aboriginal kids. And that's not to say like there was malicious or any ill intent there. But yeah, I feel like there could have been things that were better.

Julia Zemiro 34:47
It's often said that historically, education for indigenous and Torres Strait Island people has been about assimilation and control. What is what's the state of it at the moment do you Think

Hayley McQuire 35:01
I think those, that legacy is still ongoing. You know, like, right now we're having a conversation about what we teach the next generation about the truth of our history, right? We have an education minister who was calling for a patriotic curriculum that gives a fair and that doesn't present a negative view of the past, because that might cause further indecision. But, you know, I questioned that completely, because, one, in first and foremost, it's about the experiences of Aboriginal Torres Strait Islander students in the classroom. And this was an experience I had when you go into your history classroom. And you're told that Captain Cook discovered Australia that you're founded as a nation of convicts, and that's the Australian story. Well, that doesn't include, you know, Aboriginal Torres Strait Islander people pre colonization, but also our fights for rights in a fair quality, fair society, land rights, all of the fight, everything that Aboriginal Torres Strait Islander people have achieved in this country has been fought for by our, our mob, you know, and to say that, for us wanting to fight for freedom is presenting is not consistent with that view, or a patriotic Australia, I think, is really unfair. So we see that, you know, we see this, the way that the story that we want to tell ourselves as continuing a colonial narrative, right through to, you know, our measurements of success, you know, for Aboriginal touchdown, the kids, when you think about educational success, you think attendance rates, or school retention, those are just indicators, those aren't the markers of what a good quality education is, for our people, or how we see that, you know, if you've been fortunate enough to see me in my blood, it runs film, you'll see how like this focus, hyper focus on school attendance, and actually having those metrics map to then welfare payments, that will impact a whole family, this kind of control is still continuing. And it's continuing in a lot of different ways.

Julia Zemiro 37:29
Our education minister, Alan Tudge, is, is living in a kind of an era, like the conservative 50s with the way he speaks about this constant attention to patriotism, I mean, that I don't relate to that at all. It's like everything in the government at the moment, they're completely out of touch with the fact that we have to start doing things in a new way. We have to start seeing and I I can't understand why people can't get excited by that, instead of being isn't change awful. It's like it's some changes, good. And surely anything that is inclusive, and everything that is investigating, and being curious, again, about where we've been is a good thing.

Hayley McQuire 38:07
Yeah. And I feel like, there's so many opportunities that we have to actually be leaders on a world stage, we could be leaders on climate action on a world stage. You know, we could be leaders in investing in indigenous self determined nation building and, and systems and structures that are innovative, you know, like, the Aboriginal medical services, and the origins of those are innovative, they're innovative in providing primary health care. Even the ways that we think about, you know, indigenous education and some of the work that's already happening in this space around making sure Ling Ling learning is connected, the country is connected to place, it's grounded in a holistic view of the whole Well, being of a student. You know, these are this is innovation, you know, that's coming out of indigenous communities every day. But yeah, it's it's so unfortunate, that we seem to be stifling that progress for some kind of backward ideology. We're recording

Julia Zemiro 39:25
this just before cop, part of what those of us who do believe in climate change we'd like to see is, you know, joining the rest of the world in terms of calling for changes that have to happen in terms of climate and renewables, but in involved in that has to be an understanding of or isn't this now a time to also say, how do we now really connect with our history on indigenous people what we've done what we can be, and get that treaty and get a statement from the heart where we can be united like we want to be united?

Hayley McQuire 39:58
Yeah, well, I think this thing to which people might forget about that happened with colonization is that, you know, we had a learning system and knowledge system that came from country that came from observing country and how it changed how it worked over 1000s and 1000s of years, and that's then built our identity, our culture's our ways of being and connecting. And with colonization, we brought in western education system, Western forms of Parliament, Western sciences, which were disconnected from country, you know, and so when we look at the impacts that climate change has on country, the systems that we're working in operating in, in Australia, are fundamentally at the foundational level, disconnected, you know, and so, yeah, it's about learning that history, but also, we need to think about that actually, our connection to our environment, and our connection to land, and seas and our waterways, plays a part in who we are as human beings. And as people. As long as that, you know, disconnection continues, and it continues through the different systems that uphold like our current society and the way that society works, we're not going to make the change that we need, you know, so I think it's a whole, it's a cultural change, as well,

Julia Zemiro 41:39
when I listen to you speak highly, I just think how incredible would it be? How normal should it be? How right it would be to have 15 of you in Parliament today, reminding us of that, reminding us that this is where you're living now, this is what this is. And making us connect again, it's finding connections again, with this, as you say, this country and nature, and looking after her and and also undoing trying to well, we can undo a bit try to give back in terms of what we've taken away from your people. And in terms of the incredible harm we've done as well.

Hayley McQuire 42:22
We have some incredible representation inside Parliament right now. But yeah, I feel like there's, there's so many moms out there who are young and who are doing this work at the grassroots level, even though in Parliament, it would be great. But um, there is a lot of work happening. And I think some of the people that are leading the way in this space is definitely seed, and really Telford at the who's leading that first ever grassroots Youth Climate Action Group. So but that's just one example of many really, yeah,

Julia Zemiro 42:58
to drive this work you're trying to do you co founded the National indigenous youth education coalition. And that's a growing collective of Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander young people to try and reclaim that, indeed, to try and reclaim I can't believe I have to say the sentence reclaiming indigenous rights to education, it's, it's so awful to have to even say that, that you don't have that. But what does that look like? How's that different?

Hayley McQuire 43:22
Well, I think the ultimate goal for us, in our mind is where we see a First Nations lead education system, you know, whatever that model is, or I mean, you know, we're still trying to figure that out. But basically, you know, in our current education, ecosystem, we have like a broad network of public schools, we've got independent schools, Catholic schools, why not? Why can't Why haven't we yet had support for a First Nations education system where, you know, local communities can actually think about how do they want to govern in deliver education on their country, one to preserve, you know, our cultural heritage, our languages and culture, however, that nation sees fit, but also to really invest in indigenous pedagogy that has been caring for this continent since time immemorial, you know, and I think at that level, there's so much that can be gained for all children to have access and opportunity to an education system that's being led by First Nations people. And you know, we often hear about like the importance of integration and you know, embedding Aboriginal tertia and perspectives into whole of systems or curriculum and yes, that's important, but we also need to think about the power dynamic. Mix at play. And through First Nations lead education system we're trying to make sure Well, we wanting to make sure that at that leadership governance level, that the power sets were first nations people in communities.

Julia Zemiro 45:15
My dad is French, and my mum's Australian. She made him overseas. And then we came to Australia. By chance, my primary school, my Ozzie primary school, had some French classes in it. So I did all my primary school in French. And I remember my parents being so thrilled that even though we weren't in France, I would be able to retain my French language. And it only occurred to me in the last few years. Why should I have the luxury of learning my language that is miles away on the other side of the world? And we weren't all as kids learning one of the many indigenous languages. I mean, it's it's so heartbreaking, Hayley. It's so heartbreaking, that that, that that was available in the 70s. And Greek school was available for kids on a Saturday. Yeah. And you couldn't learn an indigenous language anywhere. And we're lucky to have people like Stan Grant's father who, you know, tried to, you know, got that like that his language back and fought hard to make that happen. It's the inequity discontent, because, you know, you would you're thinking of that wave of migrants needed that support, but indigenous people needed that support, too.

Hayley McQuire 46:29
Yeah, and it, and it's like, that's the thing, I think, the principles around that, like, of course, you would want all young people to be able to retain that sense of self and, and connect to who they are, you know, but that same opportunity has just never been fully given to First Nations people at like, at a systemic level, I should say, you know, there has been like that grassroots movement, you know, and innovation, you know, that community members have fought for, and I think that's the great thing about the national indigenous youth education coalition is that we do get to inherit, you know, like, the activism that came through, you know, when they had a few Aboriginal or Torres Strait Islander schools set up, you know, there is more, I think, public, yeah, acceptance of these rights, like you're demonstrating yourself, Julia, but it's that next is that next level now that I feel like us as young people responsible for and you know, for Aboriginal, especially young people, you know, were responsible for passing down this longest continuing culture in the world, while also facing down really complex, global challenges, like climate change, that, you know, are threatening our cultural heritage sites, or, you know, like globalization and just the tensions that that brings, or different changing kind of technology, like all these really hard issues, and then we have to think about it within the ways that this Australian government continues to treat our people, we're operating in a really complex environment, but I feel like I'm very fortunate that we've got, we stand on the shoulders of giants, really, there seems

Julia Zemiro 48:37
to be a common theme to that it's, it's your generation and down that are having to do the heavy lifting. And I for one, just want to keep saying to people, I'm here to help, like if you need sandwiches made, or you need some faxing, done, because that's my era, but don't ask me to send any complicated emails. But I mean, you know, I feel like you're just a beautiful speaker. It's I'm so heard you on many, many different podcasts like this. And, and I love it when you say that we need a stronger educational dialogue in this country. And I would certainly say that for non Indigenous education as well. I think they're kind of getting it wrong. I think that's sort of losing traction, like what are you making people for the future? How you making people for the future? And indeed, this indigenous way in this indigenous way of looking at things is actually more progressive would be more useful?

Hayley McQuire 49:28
Yeah, I think it's funny you say that like, and, again, like, I completely agree. I've been able to do some work with learning creates Australia, which is a growing alliance of different businesses, educators, you know, education providers and policymakers across the country who are wanting to connect together over what is that future of learning in Australia? And that's, yeah, that's been really positive and we've made sure that we've centered you know that first nations self determinations. And sovereignty is part of that piece of work. But really, it's it's so fundamental, you know, I feel like sometimes, and I'm, I've only been a parent for five years now. But I feel like, as you become a parent, too, you want to try and outsource things as much as you can. But you know, we can't get we, we can't look at education the same way where it's something that we outsource to the States or to the state, really, we really have to think about our young people. And that future that they're going to inherit, like, like I said before, is what the situation of Aboriginal touch on the young people is, all young people are facing a really complex future, and we don't even know what the future jobs are going to look like, or what's the future society is going to look like? And so we have to think about, well, what are those core values that we want all young people to inherit? What if we think about, you know, our future generations, like, six, seven generations from now? What do you want that society to look like? Because, really, that's what our knowledge systems do, is they connect us to those people in the future that we're not going to meet? You know, how do we? How do we want to tell them about ourselves, but also what we hope we want them to be able to? to do? You know, like, that's why I feel like education is just so fundamental, and also quite beautiful in but yeah, we are operating with in a system that came out of, you know, the last industrial revolution, revolution, you know, like, it's 150 year old kind of model. And when we look into the future, well, is this Is it adequate? You know, yeah,

Julia Zemiro 52:07
Is it adequate guy I was looking at, you know, in general, in high schools, you know, you're doing your English, Mathematics, Science and Technology, you'll do your human society in its environment. That's one of them, Personal Development, Health, Physical Education, creative arts, languages, if you're lucky, vocational education and training, geography, you know, where's the critical thinking in that, you know, where we teachers already talk about how, because my mom was a teacher, she was a language teacher, and teachers, you know, 2530 years ago, talk about how they could do their subject. They could do this subject, but they could also, you know, go off track and maybe do other bits do something real like they might do civics or they might do politics, or they might do how Parliament work at Parliament House work. So and now there's a sense that you're really quite boxed in now you are you really have to concentrate on your, on your subject. And there's, there's also no time there's way more admin now as well. And the Teachers Federation is constantly talking about pay rises, teachers haven't been their pay hasn't increased in so long, and, and yet, during the pandemic, I would have thought this was the time when everybody would have looked at teachers and gone off. That's what they do. They're incredible.

Hayley McQuire 53:23
Yeah, I feel like teachers should be. Yeah, valued just as much as we value our health practice practitioners in a way. And, you know, I think, yeah, it's, it's so you're so right, in terms of just like, those are the common things that we hear about, you know, the crowded curriculum, or, you know, the additional stress that educators have put on da. And I just think to like, taking a step back, like, you know, the type of inequity that is faced here, education system, too. We know that we got one of the most socially segregated education systems in the OECD. So the type of education that you're going to have access to, if you're from a low economic household is going to be completely different to those with wealth or who live in particular areas. You know, some of this comes through, you know, depending on you know, your situation, sometimes you don't even have that choice, over the type of education that you can give to your child. You know, those are really like, hard issues when you think about, like the importance of having a good quality, public education, you know, that's accessible to all young people and where teachers with the In that, you know, do you have a level of agency? And do you feel like they're being recognized in and rewarded? Yeah, I feel like subjects are a great way to explore content. But yeah, I think another issue that comes along is the pathway that we tend to put all young people on is towards a university pathway, which is well or bad. But when you get to those senior secondary years, there's a strong emphasis on like, your type of aches task, or you get the way that those are reined in calculated, a, you know, it's the system kind of maintaining itself. And so we need to also think about, well, how do we create broader metrics and broader ways of recognizing all the fantastic things that young people knowing can do? Like if they don't work in the arts? Or, you know, if they're a musician, or if they've done so much work for their communities? You know, how are we really recognizing that and giving currency, to the richness of that those experiences and knowledge is that young people have broader than just a, you know, a 99, on an ATAR.

Julia Zemiro 56:19
I know, I mean, I went to an acting school, you know, try that for all the acting schools got into one in Melbourne. And I was 24, by the time I got there, and the way they taught, I learned how to learn there, basically, because I finally got that, oh, you can learn by watching. Or you can learn by doing, or you can learn by it's not just all by reading and writing. And that's important. We don't just learn you got to do things if I physically don't do something. So, you know, should we be spending eight hours or six hours a day inside? Maybe that some of that time should be outside? What does the First Nations lead education system look like to you? Like if you're if you had your wildest dreams, and something wacky happened, like, I became prime minister and said, Yeah, we're making tertiary, secondary and primary free. Go for the army, the smart country, and I've gone highly Yes, here you go. Instead of spending money on submarines, you may have this money. And let's do something interesting. Is there a kind of a, a dream scenario to begin with?

Hayley McQuire 57:25
Yeah, well, for me, like, I always think about it in terms of, I think I've used enough time, I don't know if I'll reach the scope for my daughter, but hopefully my grandchild or great granny, but I do, I do want them to be able to go, like, my idea is that we'd have our own to rumble school on terrible country, and that the classroom wouldn't necessarily be the four walls and the chairs, like, yeah, that would be an option, but spending a lot of time on country where they can, I feel like just get getting that grounding of who they are as a charitable person, and like, the different responsibilities we have to country, I think would be the foundation of that curriculum. I don't think that I'd get rid of like, the school bell. I like full lunches, and recess and stuff like that. 100% Yeah. And like, you know, yeah, I just, I don't know why that's the thing, but get rid of the school bell. And I'd see it as more like, integrated with the community, you know, like, yeah, like, I'd see, like, Where could they be possibilities for shared space, you know, where community can where the school is vital hub, you know, of other community services. And, you know, like, there are great examples happening like the Murray school, they have health services run out of the school, or I'd like to see like communal, like libraries and, and that kind of stuff. But really, it's just something where there's not like that invisible wall, between the school and in the space that it's operating in. That's what I'd want to see and where all children but especially young, like Aboriginal or Torres Strait Islander kids, don't feel like they have to hide a bit of them, or they don't feel like they have to sacrifice. Like the best of them who they are, in order to succeed at school,

Julia Zemiro 59:34
but also to be bold and loud in it. I want to be bold and loud, like any other kid is and make noise in that language or make noise in my identity and not be told off because, you know, I'm an Aboriginal Torres Strait Islander kid doing that. Yeah, you know, there's a theory that you know, teenagers would be better off starting school at nine or 10am or later because they need the sleeping what are they in there at 7:30am doing for you know, whatever. they could start at 10. And finish at five. Because it suits the more you know, this is very western also idea about, well, you will if meet your means you're working hard if you're up at seven o'clock you're already in, then you're swamped. 20 laps. And you've done this and done that. And I really thought that COVID would be this incredible reminder. And people are talking about about I don't want to go back to how busy I was before what has busy even mean.

Hayley McQuire 1:00:27
Yeah. i The thing is, if it's if it can happen on Zoom, I'll be happy.

Julia Zemiro 1:00:36
Where do you see yourself? In the next 10 years? You know, you're, you're someone who's had the most incredible kind of you know, I mean, you're co founder of the of this indigenous youth education coalition co chair of learning creates Australia, and Obama Foundation leader in the Asia Pacific. Is there a job? Or is there a purpose, something that you feel like your pivot pivot if I can use that hideous COVID word? Pivot? Do you see you see yourself in a different position in 10 years time?

Hayley McQuire 1:01:11
Well, to use another COVID slang? Well, now more than ever, I've realized. Yeah, like in 10 years time, like, I honestly don't know, I know that by that time, I'd want. Like, I'd be out of the coalition and be run by continue to be run by young, younger people. But I think I would love to be able to play a role in I love to convene, and bring different people together around issues where, you know, multiple people aren't satisfied, you know, so whatever that kind of looks like would take shape. I feel like there's power in bringing yet different coalition's of people together. And I think that see, that's the only way forward, you know, Oh, yeah. Yeah. So I'd hope to be playing some kind of service type role in that area.

Julia Zemiro 1:02:10
Have you had mentors along the way that have been able to help? And are they hard to find?

Hayley McQuire 1:02:16
Yeah, I've had, I've had a few mentors. And actually, mentoring has been really important to me. And I've just been that weird person. i Well, my first mentor is this incredible Ratterree and one over a woman, Donna Marie, he's also the CEO of indigenous Allied Health Australia. And I remember seeing her speak once in it only took one time. And I think I was like, 20. And as soon as she got off the stage, I just bailed her up and said, Can you please mentor me? And then that's been about 10 years or so now? of mentoring. So yeah, I've had some really powerful mentors, but it's just been more of that informal one. So I've met someone and just, like seeing kind of how they think and Yeah, been been able to, to learn a lot from from a few people. Now.

Julia Zemiro 1:03:15
I sometimes have had mentors who didn't even know they were my mentor. You know, this is someone you admire, and they're in your frame of reference, or maybe they're not even, but you just go Bob cheedo? Yeah, okay. Yeah, you know, this sort of, you kind of align with their system of beliefs, I guess. And you think, you know, like I said, he might be a great lecturer, or might be a great teacher, or even just a work colleague, and you think, yeah, no, she wouldn't. She wouldn't do that she wouldn't do that. And they don't even know. And then I remember years later, telling them and then going, Oh, thanks. You could have come up. And I'm like, Ah, now this. Mentoring just has you say it's touching base with with her and being able to say, I'm thinking of doing it this way. What do you reckon? You know?

Hayley McQuire 1:04:00
Yeah. Yeah. And I've been really lucky that my mentors haven't just been for me individually, but they've kind of come in and mentored, like, a whole night crew. Well, we've been trying to think about strategy, you know, like, you're just volunteering their time to help with our strategic planning or like, help us understand a particular focus or topic, like I've been able to draw on those to really help set the foundations for the coalition as well, which is, I feel like, yeah, that's, that's also the best way to use mentoring is to it's like, it's like being able to draw on your own star advisory team to

Julia Zemiro 1:04:47
really love a star advisory team. Finally, you know, this podcast is called who cares? And I'm trying to get people to kind of care a little bit more in there. Every day life, and there's no data can seem overwhelming. And if you did it 24 hours a day, seven days a week, you know, I mean, that's what that's what you're asking. But it's just saying, I guess, make a little bit more effort in your own life to challenge your own thinking or challenge your own habits or challenge, what you think is absolutely true. You know, that is the truth. And that well, is it? Because I also think that when we go to this next election, could it be December? Could it be March? Who knows? We don't know. But um, we're voting on lots of things. That way, we're not just voting on climate change, we're voting on how we want to be represented what we want to see. And I keep talking about the election as being like an exam people should study for, you know, you can't be going in there going, God, I didn't look anything up, I've got no idea who anyone is, you want to go in there and make good decisions about, you know, what, who you gonna vote for? And why. But in terms of this new way of looking at education, how can what can what can a person do? Like? What's the way do you start with your local community? Do you is it about donations, you know, I think everyone should be donating some money if they can, and be, you know, be smart about where you put that money, do something good with it,

Hayley McQuire 1:06:15
I'd say like, just think about, you know, education, to me is all about legacy, you know, like, you know, like you think about just even the different things that you get passed down to you within like a family kind of unit, it might be a particular meal that everyone cooks, or, you know, there's something that you do every time, you know, New Year's rolls around. Like, the what we teach, and the values we teach young people is a form of L legacy, you know, you hardly ever meet someone who can't recall their favorite teacher or can't recall a particular moment that they had at school. You know, education is just so powerful in shaping individuals and shaping our society. And so my call to action would be to look at, you know, how the who's going to invest in education, but what kind of education? Do you want an education that only serves to, that seems to be in service to some kind of political ideology? Or do you want to invest in an education that is caring about young people, and caring about young people's futures, because that is ultimately our future that we're, that we're all going to be betting on. So

Julia Zemiro 1:07:45
it's interesting, because when you speak of those traditions, you know, white folks love their traditions of having gone to this school, and I want my son to go to this school, and then my grandson will go to this school, you know, there's this sense of, you know, and there was some English background, whereas apparently, we're not allowed to celebrate the traditions and in your culture. And if yours are so important one, then why isn't an indigenous Torres Strait Islander? That's just as important to you clearly want that. So why don't you allow it in another? And in fact, why not maybe learn about it and be part of it. And I guess, you know, if they can be a Montessori school, and they can be a Steiner School, you know, you know, where people have said, I don't like the way things are done. So we want these separate kind of schools where they do different things where often it is a more experiential way of learning, actually going outside, be more, there's, there's room for it, I just, I really think we're at a point at the moment where we are going to have to do some things so differently, and the change will have to come faster, because it has to come faster. And it's just wondering if people have the courage to do it. And where do you get excited about stop seeing this downside of it? See the upside of it, you know?

Hayley McQuire 1:08:59
Yeah, I agree. I think this is the time where we can actually be asking the people who want to lead this country, what their vision is

Julia Zemiro 1:09:09
here and have one, why not have a vision, please have a

Dan Ilic 1:09:13
vision. Julissa Mira asks, Who cares?

Julia Zemiro 1:09:16
Yes, let's have a vision. Leaders with vision. So we want what we want a bit more than that. Thank you so much, to Haley and to Cory, for doing the podcast this number two out of six podcasts in the next few months, I really have been reflecting on this notion that we are going to have to make some very, very significant changes in terms of climate in terms of wanting to reconcile with the indigenous people of this country to education, you know, how can we look at change as a good thing? How can we look at change as a necessary thing? We have to make so many of them at the moment and Finding a way to maybe switch our thinking to the good that can come out of it, how it called bind us together another the things that will separate us. Anyway, onwards and upwards. Hey, see you next month. Thanks for joining me.

Unknown Speaker 1:10:13
Bye

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