APEX Express – 11.24.22 Lavender Phoenix’s Peer Counseling Program by and for Trans Nonbinary Asian Pacific Islander people

KPFA - APEX Express

A weekly magazine-style radio show featuring the voices and stories of Asians and Pacific Islanders from all corners of our community. The show is produced by a collective of media makers, deejays, and activists.

This episode highlights Lavendar Phoenix’s Peer Counseling Program. Tonight you’ll be hearing interviews from Iris Yip, Phibi Loc Tran, Madhvi trivedi-pathak, and Al.

They launched their Peer Counseling Program back in August 2022 and

• This pilot came out the Trans Justice committee’s Up to Us needs assessment finding around trans and non binary API people struggling with mental health and not being able to access affirming mental health support. We wanted to create a free mental healing program that was led by trans API people and did not involve the police.
• About 7+ trans and non binary API members planned and organized for almost 2 years to make this pilot happen in Aug 2022.
• In June-August 2022 we trained 10 trans and non binary API counselors in abolitionist and disability justice based peer counseling (with the help of Project LETS and Asian American Peer Counseling).
• In August 2022 we held peer counseling with 8 participants.
• The majority of the organizers, counselors and participants were from our priority groups: working class, South Asian/South East Asian/PI/Central Asian. We chose these groups to prioritize those most impacted by systemic oppression in our community.
• One participant who received counseling said: “Both of my peer counselors were so lovely to talk to, and I felt more seen in that one session than I have in 10 years of searching for a therapist who could understand my intersectionality.”

Lavender Phoenix builds transgender, non-binary, and queer Asian and Pacific Islander power in the Bay Area. We inspire and train grassroots leaders, transform our values from scarcity to abundance, and build vibrant intersectional movements.

AACRE Thursdays is monthly radio show featuring an organization from the AACRE: Asian American for Civil Rights and Equality. AACRE Thursdays premiers every third Thursday of the month at 7pm. Find more APEX Express Shows here.

Links:

• Donate to sustain our work: lavenderphoenix.org/donate
• Instagram: @lavphoenix
• Facebook: facebook.org/lavphoenix
• Twitter: @lav_phoenix

Lavender Phoenix Transcript:

[11/23/22] Peer Counseling pilot

[00:00:00] Apex express Asian Pacific expression.

Unity and cultural coverage, music and calendar, new visions, and voices coming to you with Asian Pacific Islander point of view. It’s time to get on board the apex express.

[00:00:14] paige: Hello, welcome to acre Thursdays on apex express radio. My name is Paige Chung and tonight we’ll be listening to interviews from lavender Phoenix, an organization of transgender non-binary and queer Asian Pacific Islanders fighting for community safety, healing justice. And sustainable movements in the San Francisco bay area.

[00:00:33] paige: I’m really excited tonight to showcase lavender. Phoenix is peer counseling program. Tonight. You’ll be hearing interviews from Iris Yip , Phoebe loc tran, Madvi Trivedi-Pathak, and Al, all members of lavender, Phoenix. So they launched their peer counseling program back in August, 2022. And this pilot came out of their trans justice committee’s needs assessment findings called “up to us”. In their findings they found out that trans and nonbinary API people [00:01:00] struggle with mental health and not being able to access, affirming mental health support. So they wanted to create a free mental health healing program that was led by trans Asian Pacific Islander people. And did not involve the police.

[00:01:13] paige: So about seven plus trans and non binary API planned organized for almost two years to make this pilot happen in August, 2022. So From June to August, 2022, they trained 10 trans and non-binary API counselors. And abolitionists and disability, justice based peer counseling. Using the help of project LETS and Asian-American peer counseling. Then in August, 2022, they held their peer counseling program with eight participants. The majority of the organizers, the counselors and the participants were from the priority groups of lavender, Phoenix, which include the working class, south Asian people, Southeast Asian people, Pacific Islander people and central Asian people. And they chose these groups to prioritize because they’re the most [00:02:00] impacted by systematic oppression in their community. And one participant who receives counseling said, ” both of my peer counselors were so lovely to talk to. And I felt more seen in one session that I have in 10 years of searching for a therapist who could understand my intersectionality.”

[00:02:16] paige: So we’ll first hear from Iris. Yep. And Mahdavi, and then you’ll hear from Phoebe and I’ll later on. And yeah, we’ll hear about their peer counseling program that they launched and their reflections from it. Here is Iris Yip.

[00:02:31] Iris: So the first question is about the planning process of the pilot. So thinking about the planning process with peer counseling pilot what do you think has been going well with the process?

[00:02:42] Madhvi: With the planning process? Process? I came in during a later iteration. So by the time that I entered into this space there, several folks through Healing Justice and maybe even other committees that had given their [00:03:00] input.

[00:03:00] Madhvi: So it’s gone through many different folks, many different perspectives have been included in the planning process, and I think that creates a really well-rounded experience. You can tell that there’s a lot of consideration too, on who’s been generally excluded from life spaces where gaining the tools for healing and community support and really trying to center the planning around. Amplifying and creating a space that feels welcoming for folks that are often excluded, even within our large QT API umbrella. It’s nice that this is a trans centered space. This is one that is really trying to honor working class narratives to think that’s a place of invisibilization often. So there’s a lot of thoughtfulness that has been put into the planning process.

[00:03:48] Iris: And what would you say that is the impact of that thoughtfulness and having had so many perspectives be involved in the creation of this?

[00:03:56] Madhvi: I think impact is that when there has been gaps, it does end up [00:04:00] getting filled. There is an abundance of perspectives coming in. So there’s this flow of thoughts that , keep it full , very thoughtful in that way. also the folks who are on, who are in this iteration of the planning and organizing. I’ll come from really interesting, unique backgrounds. So you’re able to see the input from each different person and it gives it a really beautiful, full experience to be able to see the ways in which the curriculums can develop the way in. And the art connecting to the flyers, that was created by a previous summer organizer too. There’s just it’s nice to have a history already, in this mix, being made and so many people being involved. Okay.

[00:04:45] Iris: And then thinking about the planning process again what has been difficult about the process?

[00:04:50] Madhvi: Since this is a first time pilot program, there’s so much beauty and potential for what seeds are being sewed in this segue of [00:05:00] wanting to make sure things feel. Evenly doable for folks who are the peer counselors in training as well as the people who are on the organizing end and so it’s this chemistry situation where we’re , okay.

[00:05:13] Madhvi: I’m , does this feel too much too soon? Or does it feel not enough? We wanna be able to. Support folks and feeling supported to be able to do this pilot. It’s new for everyone, for the organizers, for the people who are being trained, for the folks that are gonna be receiving the counseling. So there’s a lot of considerations around ethics, safety, holding, these notions of what is safe? What feels the individual, in their agency and autonomy can hold and the organization too. Where are the places where lavender, phoenix, maybe impacted, Are there things around informed consent or if there is some kind of moment things that we’ve had conversations about, it’s okay, what.

[00:05:53] Madhvi: Someone gets activated a peer counselor’s not able to hold the space or they end up leaving feeling [00:06:00] activated from a session. We were thinking a lot about the chain of support, so how the organizers can support the peer counselors as they’re supporting the people being counseled and then how lavender Phoenix can help the organizers. So it’s just a lot of figuring it out for the first time. . And also peer counseling is really beautiful in this way where it’s separate from the clinical, mandated regulations that maybe counselors who are held by, state laws are in relationship with.

[00:06:30] Madhvi: So there’s more freedom here. And then also moving through that space. It’s also when we’re in that place of freedom, there’s this underlying, I feel the state tries to instill fear in people who are trying to do this work that you’re gonna fuck up or gonna do something wrong. And it’s really a lot of us being , we actually know what we need to do, how to be able to maneuver out of these state based policies that rely on violence systems and give each other the tools.

[00:06:57] Iris: Okay. And then last question [00:07:00] on the planning process do you have any recommendations for improving the process or

[00:07:05] Madhvi: For the planning process? I think that there’s really great intention to share, if people are feeling. Burnt out overexerted. And also I think that a lot of us, including myself, [laughter], I think from the , I will not really share that when it’s happening, even though the language at Lavender Phoenix and the culture is ask for help when you need it.

[00:07:25] Madhvi: There’s so much of that. And then yet there’s still this feeling of resistance or feeling , Bad about not being able to do more and pushing past, what does feel comfortable I’m wondering if there’s a space for people in the planning process as organizers to kinda anonymously send feedback to staff anonymous feedback survey sort of thing, during the process to kinda gauge. People’s level of feeling energized, exhausted, what maybe is needed.

[00:07:56] Madhvi: And since there are people who are yeah, the working class [00:08:00] end too, of the organizing side. It would be cool if there were stipends. It is a lot of work and labor that goes into it for compensation is a cool thing. And also it’s one of those things too, even saying it feels a guilt twinge or being , this is something where it’s community. We’re doing it for a reason outside. But it’s also the, sometimes it’s hard to be able to do the psych work when our own cups are emp.

[00:08:26] Iris: Yeah. Great. Thank you for sharing the ation. And I think there’s a of the important things there, especially around feedback. Yeah. I think anonymous feedback is to bridge that of job and how difficult it’s my next set of. Is it that the sustainability you talk a little bit about, but I know that the peer counseling team has tried to do a lot of work around making the process sustainable for both the planning team and counsel. So thinking about the sustainability of the process what do you think has worked so far?

[00:08:57] Madhvi: Sustainability wise, it has [00:09:00] been nice to be able to have the larger healing justice committee plug into the efforts. And there’s I think five or six of us who are in the organizing peer counseling side right now, but they’re , Yeah, as I shared before, there have been so many people the earlier iterations of this too. It’s being able to know that you can kinda pass the torch and there’s gonna be other people there. It’s not all of the responsibility is on this group of five or six people. There are so many people who are down to rise to the occasion and support and be here for the next iteration too. I think that’s gonna be something that’s gonna help with. Long term visions of sustainability too, and knowing that there will be breath in between and there’s always consent in the process too, really invitations to kind join into these efforts. Nothing feels, it feels the space to communicate.

[00:09:55] Madhvi: Okay, if it’s when does it end? Are we. ending there. Are we [00:10:00] continuing, it does seem there’s a finite end point for this moment in time, which gives a break and that feels just good to know in terms of future planning and if the invitation to come back to help the pilot program or the program if it wants, if it grows. Something that’s gonna be a larger part, for the future of lavender Phoenix. And there’s that aspect, which is great. Sustainability wise, it’s cool that we’re not, the organizers are not doing all the trainings. I thought that was originally what it was and it felt a lot.

[00:10:28] Madhvi: But we’re able to resource out to people in the community who’ve been doing this work for a really long. Who are living their lives, Project lets folks in that word Stephanie, get to make their living off of doing this amazing disability justice work. And it’s cool to be able to financially support them too in the process of feel sustainable. Even in the way that we’re creating the relationships, new relationships to other orgs that haven’t been part of Lavender Phoenix’s network in the past. So it feels yeah, there’s that way of [00:11:00] being able to be supportive, sustaining other people, other projects, other orgs, utilizing other folks’ knowledge.

[00:11:07] Iris: Yeah. as a follow up to that, what you think the impact has been of outsourcing, the training to project LETS rather than digging it.

[00:11:16] Madhvi: Yeah, The impact has been a really great learning experience, I think for even the organizers doing this too. We get to learn alongside the peer counselors, we get to build relationships with project labs other groups too we’re gonna be doing role play later. I’m forgetting what the acronym starts with aapc. And just being able to these are folks that have been doing peer counseling specifically in Asian American communities, for a good second too. So they have inside guidance, a history, a way to be able to support and navigate and offer their own wisdom. As this specific, lavender, phoenix seed is in its way of sprouting out a peer counseling. So [00:12:00] it’s lovely being able to , have people who’ve been doing this, be able to offer feedback throughout the process to offer guidance that doesn’t , feel one of those things , ah, we’re starting from scratch.

[00:12:10] Madhvi: No, it’s it’s already here. This resource is here and we’re connecting to what is already, and then if, Yeah, making the changes that feel the needed transformation, maybe if it. Spaces haven’t honored trans, non-binary, intersex communities, in the process of centering their spaces, That’s what we’re able to do better. What we’re able to commit to doing better is owning those kinds of spaces and having folks within our own communities getting trained who have lived experience in that way. So just different places, orgs that have lived experience in their own ways, taking the gems and then knowing that our peer counselors have this other lived experience that maybe not as represented in other spaces. They get to add their own little non-binary flare too. Yeah.

[00:12:58] Iris: And then on the flip [00:13:00] side thinking about the sustainability of this project, what do you think could make this process more sustainable?

[00:13:06] Madhvi: It really feels in the future since we’ve already kinda done a lot of the initial connecting, getting the trainings, learnings and understandings, from this experience, going forward it’s gonna be a lot less work on the organizing end since we’ve done a lot of research amongst all the different iterations of folks who have passed through the planning process for this. That there’s just a beautiful database that is growing and growing in so many resources that are growing and growing that it’s feeling very. A tangible vault of okay, this is where we’re gonna go and we know where we’re gonna go. Versus I’m not sure yet. It’s kinda we transgressed into the place of knowing okay, these orgs are here and that helps, that feeling of sustainability and kind shortening, that place of panic of Oh, where do we go? Who do we turn to support us and who can we support to in. .

[00:13:58] Madhvi: Yeah, and [00:14:00] if we’re able to keep in touch and keep those relationships strong, there may be even more places of connecting and growing and offering. People in not just the live under Phoenix community, but community, but larger communities the ability to access maybe free or, Yeah, free trainings on peer counseling and letting it be more of a widespread so to resource that it’s just a really beautiful thing that folks can tap into feeling that level of agency, that feels self sustainable, too, sustainable for organizations when people , feel they’re equipped.

[00:14:35] Iris: Thank you for your response to that. My last two questions are about the future of the program. So first do you have any thoughts on if we should continue this program after the pilot stage and what would the impact of that be? Whether we do or not?

[00:14:53] Madhvi: I think it would be really wonderful for it to be something that happens.[00:15:00] A few times a year. I know when peer support things do start out, it’s smaller, shorter, and then as people can be more familiar with the process and the comfort of knowing their own agency and holding space, it feels something that it could be in many seasons throughout the year and the space of just.

[00:15:21] Madhvi: Drop in support. It’s something that feels a need that’s always gonna be a need. And it’s also to have free, culturally competent, gender expansive, aware ways of being, in listening in support. That feels a forever healing justice. Home to kinda be able to provide community. It feels important. It seems and fingers crossed, that people who are going through this training program are able to tap in deeper cuz there’s a good handful of folks, I believe 16 people and those folks can be organizers in so many different renditions down the line too, having had [00:16:00] this experience and they’re coming in. Yeah. I’m just so curious to hear their own feedback on this process and what they think future peer counselors would need for it to grow. I’m sure that there’s gonna be maybe more, carefully cultivated, cohort experiences could be a. Powerful experience for folks.

[00:16:19] Madhvi: Cause right now it does feel a little bit looser in the sense of different parts of , the summer organizer. There’s a strong sense of Oh, we’re building relationships with each other. That doesn’t seem it exists so strongly for people who are peer counselors right now, they’re showing. These spaced weekends with minimal contact with each other throughout. So maybe that could be the future, where there’s a more of a cohort experience. Yeah.

[00:16:44] Iris: Yeah. The last question is, do you have new recommendations for continuing this program beyond the pilot? If it does.

[00:16:53] Madhvi: Yeah, I think this cohort experience would be cool. Maybe art, kinda. Component too [00:17:00] are a, creating a space, it is something that we didn’t really talk about, but there are ways of making virtual s and things that, And that could be really beautiful as part of this. I’m also curious to hear more people’s stories as to why they’re interested in this work. There was a little bit of that in the welcoming but just the ability to know folks a little bit more feels it could be important. And in the spirit of doing that too, it feels the training would maybe need to. be closer in time as well as instead of spaced out over several months.

[00:17:36] Madhvi: I think the spacing out really helped us as the planning team. Yeah. Cause a lot of things have been figured out very as we’re going, even though we tried to plan ahead, things changed. So it’s okay. But that timeline that allows a sense of intimacy and connection to in a way that feels , okay, more concrete. And yeah, I think more interactive aspects too would be [00:18:00] helpful. It does feel a lot of absorbing, which is super important. And also I think when we get to the role play, we’re gonna be able to witness more so of the peer counselors in the process of. Doing the embodied and the relaying aspects of this where Yeah, right now it’s a lot of absorbing, taking in.

[00:18:21] Madhvi: Yeah. I’m also wondering for the peer counselors in their own lives too, the way that , these interview questions have been kinda asking about sustainability. Or the planning team and all of those I’m curious too, for them, how they would need more support from us. If it feels it’s even an open invitation too, I’m not entirely sure if that has been as carefully created and Yeah. So I think that would. An important thing to consider going forward. Just kinda checking in on where the individuals are too in their life and knowing that they can receive support. I , I hope that they know, in our [00:19:00] emails, there is always that space of feel free to, to connect on things anything in the reading feels activating. This is who you can reach out to and so I hope that There in a way that sometimes even when something is there in that way, it doesn’t mean that people are gonna use it if there’s not that trust and rapport built.

[00:19:19] Madhvi: So I feel needing to have some trust building, relationship building for people to feel safe enough to actually reach out if they dunno folks. Yeah. Okay. And actually I have one follow up to your, It’s about what do you think would be the impact of having a closer connection between the counselor cohort if they had more opportunities to , interact with each other and talk in that way? , I honestly think that it. I’m just thinking about my own cohort experiences in different places. I’ve been able to lean on those folks, maybe more so than the people who are holding the container. There’s a distance between the people who are holding the [00:20:00] container and the people who are going through the process with you, shared experiences, more maybe of the same questions, insecurities, excitement, joy and being able to have that kinda space to know okay, we’re going through this together, this part of the journey. It could just help additional processing that, stronger feeling of grounded in purpose as well. Yeah.

[00:20:24] Madhvi: Great. And I totally agree, and that’s my question. Yeah. Thank you for talking with me. I’m going to end the recording now.

[00:20:33] paige: All right. That was the first interview with Iris yip and Madvhi. So now we’re going to take a quick music break and listen to queer brown love by Leo Hegde who is on staff. I love under Phoenix. This is queer brown love by Leo Hegde.

[00:21:00] [00:22:00] [00:23:00] [00:24:00]

[00:24:20] paige: You just listened to queer brown love by Leo Hegde who is a staff at lavender Phoenix. You are listening to apex express on KPFA 94.1 and [e-mail]. Let’s get back into these interviews by lavender Phoenix. And this next interview will be conducted by Iris Yip who will be talking to Al.

[00:24:41] Iris: This is the first question. What has gone, what has worked well with the training content?

[00:24:45] al: Yeah, so what has worked really well, I believe is Lavender Phoenix outsourcing the education to those that are actively learning and practicing. Peer [00:25:00] counseling based on their own lived experiences. I think that opportunity to collaborate with project lets created such a in depth and I. Just , how do I say this? Enlightening space for me and my peers to learn and also express curiosity, ask questions in live time with the coordinator of project lets, and process hard emotions and also bring in our own lived experiences and ask for best practices in live time.

[00:25:29] al: So I just, That has been very revolutionary for me because just in multiple learning spaces that I’ve been in from school to workplaces to internships, people tend to cut corners around education. They think that trainings are just trainings PowerPoints, but. I think that learning from guest speakers that are actually within the realm of work, and especially for this work of working with people, I think that this will create influential impacts on each and every peer counselor.

[00:25:59] al: There’s [00:26:00] no way that I feel this curriculum has been disengaging. It’s been so engaging and so memorable. And I wanna say too, that I’ve been in different peer counseling cohorts and I’ve been trained on this topic area, but the content was ableist, not trauma-informed, controversial and harmful. And the content that peer counseling has been teaching me has been healing me and been helping me to expand my scope on my family, my lived experiences, and myself and my community. And it’s so much more than just a training. It’s a revolutionary space for sure.

[00:26:40] Iris: Awesome. Yeah. I love that. Has there been any, specific part of the training that you can share that you think has had that impact on you?

[00:26:47] al: Has that healing impact on me? Yeah I think that I’ve. I think this might be normal in lavender, phoenix spaces, but it’s not normal for me in my other spaces in my everyday life. [00:27:00] But calling one selves in to whenever they misspoke for instance, one time the coordinator of Project LETS had said something about the word darkness and they had not caught themselves about the racist implications that, that may have because of the just how society binary things, black, white, darkness and light. And there’s a lot of connotations around the words you use and using mindful language. And I didn’t know that it was. Irking, I didn’t know that. But then in that space, someone called them in and the speaker corrected themselves.

[00:27:34] al: And I got to watch, someone that I look up to model behavior in lifetime of what I’m learning as they’re learning and seeing my educators , or my mentors facilitators, having that student always mentality too, that they’re here to learn from us as well. That’s groundbreaking because I have so much respect for queer elders cuz they’ve lived through so much stuff. But the fact that. The queer [00:28:00] elders in this space in particular want to learn from us, the youth in this space. I think that’s what’s really healing, because in this space, I just see a world where I really actually wanna live in. And that could make me cry because the state of the world outside of the space is really ugly.

[00:28:16] Iris: That’s amazing. I’m really glad this training has given me that space. I really resonated with what you said about being an environment where there’s, again, mutual sense of learning and wanting to learn from each other. I think that curiosity really helps bring an open mind to these kinds of spaces.

[00:28:30] Iris: Okay. The next question is, so I think you’ve touched on this already, but what do you think has been the impact? Of outsourcing this, people that are really, I guess doing the work of anti ableist behavior and anti-racism, culturally competent peer counseling. What is the impact of that being in this kind of training?

[00:28:47] al: I think that it’s resistance in the making and movement in the making. I think that I feel very lucky to have access this knowledge because not everyone gets the chance to learn what [00:29:00] happens when someone’s under psychiatric arrest? That’s something that you will hear more about when you go through the project lETS training, but understanding. Because I’m coming from a place of privilege where I’ve never been 51 50 that I’ve never been arrested. I’ve never been on the inside doors of a psychiatric treatment facility. So speaking from that point of view and hearing from someone who has, and the harm that the state has on patients and how vulnerable patients are, I feel like that creates movement and solidarity with people who do not have lived experiences with it, but know people who have lived experiences with it and see how fucked up it is and wants to do something better and provide alternative sources and resources for care, specifically community care because .

[00:29:48] al: One of the main reasons why I’m so politicized is because growing up I watch my dad struggle to get the mental health access care he needs because he has severe [00:30:00] mental psychosis that relapses annually. And I believe that the reason why it happens so repetitively and cyclically is because there’s a need that’s not being met and that need should met by the healthcare system in this first world country. But it’s so inaccessible. It’s so culturally irrelevant and dare say it’s harmful, it’s abusive, it’s traumatizing. And so Okay. I’m going on tangents, but it’s, it, I never understood what happened when my dad was hospitalized because I was always on the outside.

[00:30:32] al: I was always his caretaker, wanting to find him a source for him to get care. But He was never able to really communicate to me what was happening on the inside of those doors because of language barriers, because how hard it is to talk about these things in Vietnamese culture. It’s just, there’s so much that separates us from being able to talk about everything he feels and everything he experiences.

[00:30:51] al: There’s just not words to describe how bizarre the state of there is in this country and neglect that he’s faced due to war and [00:31:00] colonization. He doesn’t have the words to describe what he’s going through, but I can see the effects and now I know the effects. I know I have the knowledge and education of what happens behind those hospital doors and how he spends hours and hours trying to pay his hospital bills that are bizarre.

[00:31:16] al: Hundreds of thousands of dollars and so I know these things now because of the space that I hear from other people. And I think that in knowing this, I’m fired up, I’m heated and I, my drive is to build community. My drive is to build actual healing spaces that, we have the potential to create as a collective. And I just don’t wanna rely on the state anymore. And I want better for my dad. I want better for me, I want better for our community Now, future past, I. We can do better now with these tools that we’re learning in this space and how we’re opening our hearts to each other through the various pains and barriers that, that the state is trying to keep in between us all. Yeah.

[00:31:58] Iris: Yeah. Thank you for [00:32:00] sharing both so vulnerably and so passionately. Oh, no, I really love the way you are always very reflective in what you say. And I think it gives such great knowledge that I can learn from too yeah. Yeah. Awesome. Oh my God, this is great. Okay. My next question is do you think there’s any other additional trainings that you would find helpful or that you think you would to learn more about that hasn’t been met yet?

[00:32:25] al: Yeah. So I actually went to. Bystander Intervention training led by the Safety Committee, Community Safety Committee. I feel that should have been everyone who’s training to be a peer counselor should have gone to that. I feel because it was so relevant. It was basically one thing in particular that I feel , just related so much is because they gave us real life scenarios. What would you do if someone was experiencing active psychosis in the park? What would you do with your body? What would you do with yourself? Would you get other people? All these things that are relevant practice for what’s coming up in this training. [00:33:00] Cuz I know that looking forward we are going to have a pilot program and the more practice that we can get, especially role play practice and especially being in person with one another and establishing those connections with one another, I think that’s so crucial and yeah I, Does that answer your question?

[00:33:19] Iris: Yeah, definitely. And once again, the follow up. What do you think the impact of that would be if everybody that was becoming a peer counselor would take that kind of bystand training?

[00:33:27] al: Yeah, I think that the effect of that is that we would be able to reach more people who have various learning styles because I know that for me personally, it’s hard for me to learn through Zoom because I don’t have a safe space to be taking my meetings. I still live in my parents house and it’s really hard for me to focus sometimes and feel entirely safe. So having spaces in person for me personally is a space for me to exhale. And be a different type of present cuz I’m with people and [00:34:00] I’m sharing space — space that is established and intentionally safe or encouraged to push you to be brave.

[00:34:08] al: I don’t know if everyone will feel safe there, but that’s definitely the intention. And just for me personally, yeah, being on Zoom kind of you can’t assume that everyone can learn that way, yeah. As effectively, especially since I feel the generation that’s primarily in lavender, Phoenix and the training, we grew up going to school in person. That’s the probably 90 to 95% of the experience. It was just such a shift and learning these super relevant topics. All the while I’m in a space that’s far back in terms of. It’s just being in this house is going back in time or just being in spaces that are not lavender, phoenix it is, you’re going back in time.

[00:34:44] al: Racism is there, homophobia is there, all the bad things are there. But when you’re with lavender Phoenix, you’re just I’m in this new world that I actually have hope in. I was saying earlier, so having a central location for people to meet would be so cool. But I also know that Lavender Phoenix is so spread across the Bay area, [00:35:00] which is so cool. So I know it wouldn’t work for everybody, but I don’t know. Yeah.

[00:35:04] Iris: Yeah. Absolutely .

[00:35:06] al: Oh, another thing too, an impact that I, a positive impact is that having those scenarios will allow us to practice these skills with various demographics and various sectors of our lives and just honestly live by what we learn. And not just practice it in work, but actually apply it and externally and internally in all facets of our lives, which I think is awesome. That’s what education should be. It’s for liberating the soul and for liberating the people. It’s, yeah, it’s not for a grade, it’s not for a Certifi certificate. It’s for you, and for the people. So I think that getting opportunities to practice with one another and treating it , it’s more than just a training that you can just click through, that’s the difference I think. Yeah.

[00:35:48] Iris: Yeah. Totally. Awesome. Okay, so next question is going to be moving a little bit away from the training content into, so I know the peer [00:36:00] counseling team has been doing a lot of work to try to make this process sustainable for both the planning team and for the counselors. So thinking about sustainability have there been things that, you’ve seen this program do that you think has worked to make this process more sustainable for the counselors?

[00:36:17] al: Have I seen anything that makes the process seem sustainable for, Is that the question?

[00:36:24] Iris: Yeah.

[00:36:24] al: Remind me again is this peer counseling training program, has it been through generations already? Or is this the first cohort?

[00:36:31] Iris: This is the first time.

[00:36:32] al: Have I seen anything that

[00:36:34] al: let’s see. I think it’s been. I think it’s too soon for me to say cause I missed the first meeting because. It was an awkward transition. I had just joined Lavender Phoenix when Lavender Phoenix changed their name. So I missed all the information for the first meeting. I don’t know what it, what the community building aspect that they had planned was at all. And that’s how me, I could have watched the training back, but [00:37:00] it was an hour long and I didn’t want to. Yeah, I would also feel fomo. I was , Oh, I missed it. I wasn’t there. I think that maybe. No, I don’t know how to answer this question cuz I missed

[00:37:09] Iris: Yeah, that’s OK . That’s ok. Yeah. Then perhaps, is there anything you can think of that Loud could implement to make this process more sustainable? And thinking perhaps in the long run. When this pilot program is actually started now and people are doing the counsel sessions.

[00:37:25] al: Yeah. I have a couple of things. Yeah. I would say since I missed the first one, I would say that I just wanna get to know people in my cohort better. I think that One thing that works in the past in my other peer counseling programs was that I established a feeling of familiarity with the people that I was learning with and why they’re here and stuff that. And had a lot of focus groups and we practiced on each other for role play. Yeah, feeling less alone in this would definitely make this more, less nerve-wracking. So there’s that for [00:38:00] sustainability of just cause the way that these meetings roll on, I feel not everyone can make it out to each one. So I think time should be cut away for folks to just get to know each other more besides the why are you here? But just prompt questions.

[00:38:12] al: I know Lavender Phoenix can, ask some heartfelt questions and get people to open up to one another because I think that making that making it more personable will make it more sustainable. Cause, when you don’t have a connection to people in a group, I don’t think you’re as likely to return and hold significance for it. So yeah, build building community in that way and not just for meeting. And other thing is I noticed that our meetings are quite sporadic. So I don’t even really remember what I’ve the last time I met with the cohort, so having a more consistent pattern of meetings so that the knowledge that I learned can be processed and then added onto, but there’s been so much processing time that I’ve almost forgotten it already.

[00:38:52] al: So just having more consistent meetings for the next cohorts maybe and then for another, I know that since this [00:39:00] is a pilot program, there may be a lot of pressure around building curriculum. So I understand that’s really challenging and I would say I would love to be a part of the planning process. I don’t know what that would look for Lavender Phoenix and how they do things, but maybe their next court around you can have alumnis come back and be a part of the planning and the conversation. Or even right now opening up this space or opening up spaces for people in the cohort to provide active feedback since there are so many gaps between meetings, just talk to us so we can improve as we go, as opposed to wait and then improve. So more dialogue.

[00:39:37] Iris: I love that. I love feedback. I think it’s important as well. Okay and then now last question. Moving gone. Woo. You already shared some of this, but also thinking about the future of this program, do you have any recommendations for continuing this beyond the pilot that we’re going to have?

[00:39:52] al: Yeah, please have more cohorts. That’s my feedback. , I think that if Lavender Phoenix has capacity, a cohort a year would be [00:40:00] awesome or I feel very blessed to have had this opportunity, so I want it to keep going. I can’t remember the days in which we were meeting, but having weekend meetings are awesome for students and people who work. Other feedback that I have for longevity and future planning maybe expand the, I don’t know how many people are planning the thing, but maybe more support would help. I have no idea if they’re struggling or what, but yeah, making sure that, cuz this is tough work. It’s a lot of pressure to be birthing such a beautiful generation, So I hope that, on the other end of things, people are being properly supported and taken care of in terms of each other and themselves.

[00:40:37] Iris: Yeah. Yeah, I the, there’s one more question. There’s just the follow with always the impact. So what do you think? So what will be the impact? And just what will be the impact of program, of peer counseling will be impact.

[00:40:49] al: Intergenerational community care within the, when this, within this queer, trans, non-binary, a API community I think it starts [00:41:00] here and I could see this being a force that spreads across the world. I think what we’re doing is historical and we’re carrying on other history legacies, And I think ultimately this saves lives. It saves lives of the people in this space, people who know the people in this space, and people that are in the space that we haven’t even met. And it preserves our peoples, our stories and our powers and our energies. I’m getting emotional as to how much I love this program. It saves lives, it sets people free.

[00:41:33] al: Yeah. Damn, you’re not a cry. Yeah. I think the impact is be out of this world, I don’t want it to end, I wanna return. I wanna keep learning. I think that’s another thing too, is that as someone is in the core right now, I don’t want it to end. I’d hate to see it end. I wanna keep learning. Yeah. So what does that look ? I don’t know. Maybe I can return and facilitate and learn from people in the cohort. That would be beautiful.

[00:41:58] Iris: Thank you. Truly [00:42:00] amazing. And I agree from am I involvement in this process too? I really see the power of it and I really, the learning. Community. It’s great. It’s amazing. It’s . So good. Yeah, With that, I’m gonna stop recording now.

[00:42:15] paige: All right. That concludes the second interview from lavender Phoenix. We’ll be taking a short break. You’re listening to 94.1 KPFA San Francisco, 89.3, Berkeley 88.1, Fresno and 97.5 in Santa Cruz. And of course, [e-mail].

[00:46:56] paige: You’re listening to 94.1 KPFA San Francisco, 89.3, Berkeley 88.1, Fresno and 97.5 Santa Cruz and [e-mail]. We’re going to listen to the last interview from lavender Phoenix. That includes Iris yip interviewing Phoebe. And talking about the peer counseling program that they launched in august of 2022.

[00:47:26] Iris: So the first question our first set of questions has to do with the planning process for this pilot. And in thinking about the planning process for the peer counseling pilot, what would you say has been going well with the process?

[00:47:44] Phibi: Yeah. For what’s been going well with the process? It’s been nice that we’ve been able to go at our own pace and capacity, and we’ve also had lot of different learning lessons among the team that our time together. And also helping Jasmine as a staff person just check in with us from time to time has also helped [00:48:00] consolidate our ideas and moving out the process.

[00:48:02] Iris: Great. And on the other hand, what would, what do you think has been difficult about the planning process?

[00:48:08] Phibi: Yeah, what’s been difficult about the process is that there’s actually been a lot of timeline shifts. For example, the pilot was intended to happen a one day, and then it was pushed back and then push back again. And that main thing that dragged out the process, which can be training in some context. Yeah. And then also what’s been difficult is yeah, how the healing justice members involved in contributing Yeah. Cuz we weren’t sure how to exactly even implement a process for folks outside of the peer counseling team in healing Justice can to support us. And it’s also because, it’s a novel process. It’s just. Staff guided, on the side rather than a directly staff involved process. And making this part from scratch presents a lot of difficulties on the first time.

[00:48:46] Iris: Speaking on it’s staff guided rather than staff involved. I think it’s a, you said what do you think is the impact of that rather than that, the other way of doing it?

[00:48:56] Phibi: Yeah I think one of the positive impacts is that it takes some weight [00:49:00] off of the staff. Cause the staff carry on a lot of different responsibilities. And it helps them in that sense. And also it allows more spaciousness for different folks in the planning team to actually take on leadership in the context of makes sense for them, but passively rather than turning to the staff person for the next step, it’s actually up to us to continue the process and then refer to them if we need support along the way.

[00:49:19] Iris: Yeah. Great. Okay. And then, so think about the planning process question, which is, do you have any recommendations for improving the planning process? Maybe for now or for later?

[00:49:33] Phibi: Yeah, I think. Some recommendations would be to have the staff challenge us with more kinda push or challenging questions. I think I think during the time when Yuan was still the staff member for for counseling, it was someone would ask some really deep questions and I think that really helped us certify our values and also helped us stay on track. So I think times questions that challenge us I guess we wanna do this, but also , why are we doing this important? What is the meaning of it? Yeah. Yeah. And then we also kinda implementing a more formal [00:50:00] process. I think one example would be , Mocha could be a good process or just Or when we first had the pilot, when we first had the planning team set up, it’s oh, we didn’t actually have to have a structure. It was unstructured. And so having a more structured thing in the future would be helpful. And then also listing out all the different resources and contacts that we actually have, including different community organizations is helpful. And I guess if there’s a second iteration of the peer counseling project or pilot, I guess program would be referring back to previous year’s work if this could, if this goes on for multiple years yeah.

[00:50:30] Iris: Yeah. Great. Okay. Next of questions to do around the sustainability of, so I know that the peer counseling team was doing a lot of work around making the process sustainable for both the planning team and the counsel. So thinking about the sustainability of this process, what do you think has worked?

[00:50:48] Phibi: Yeah. Something we recently done is that we actually changed our monthly meetings from the duration of one hour to the duration of an hour and 30. And this actually allowed us to have longer checkins and actually do more relationship building. [00:51:00] Because back when we had just one hour meetings, it just felt really rushed.

[00:51:03] Phibi: We had to check in super quick and then we had to do all our action items and it just felt very , limiting. And so that definit. And also recruiting more Pennington numbers definitely gave us more capacity and also more d and more experiences of folks coming in. And also having deeper and honest conversations or check-ins about the process.

[00:51:21] Phibi: Where are we at? How is our capacity? Doing those type of checkings and finding the balance of , where. We should split up and do certain tasks or we should all, all come together to work on. I think that’s a good balance to help those. Yeah. And so what do you think is the impact of having I guess longer and deeper, check-ins?

[00:51:39] Phibi: Yeah I think having, longer check-ins allows you to settle into the space. Can be coming from anything before. And so I haven’t had a deeper check in can be more real about what, where is your capacity at? And what can you more realistically take on? Yeah.

[00:51:52] Phibi: All right. So thinking about the sustainability of this process again, what do you think could be done to make this [00:52:00] process more sustainable? Yeah. To make this process more sustainable? I’d say having a more solidified structure and action plan, and also making sure that we all feel really grounded in our values. And then also I check in on those values, do they still feel good? Do we change? Do we change anything? Add anything. And. Lesson that we learned was , you really have to do relationship building early on. . And it’s you can’t just put just the work first because then everyone will burn out. If you only do work, you need to check the balance. I wish. And something that we experimented with was working sessions. So outside of the meetings have additional time just to just chill and also do work and also just get to know each other.

[00:52:36] Iris: Okay. Let’s see. So next one, next set of questions is about the training content. What is thinking about the training content, is there anything that you think has worked really well in terms of the training that the counselors have been given and the peer counseling team has created?

[00:52:53] Phibi: For the training content, we actually leaned a lot in the different community organizations that were in contact with. For example, the Asian [00:53:00] American peer counseling. We pulled some of their readings from the reading library to help us do work to figure out what the readings for the counselors. We both found their library and also with Project let’s we we’re in contact with them and we able to purchase the training for the ERs and also invite Stephanie from project lets to do a debrief, which is really nice. But also cost the budget too. And so for costed money as well.

[00:53:22] Phibi: So having a balance of something that would cost money and also something that would be free as well, such as Asian American food concert, the time and also. Having a good mix of experiences and knowledge from the depend team. I know that some other folks are , they’ve done peer counseling before, or they even are therapists in training.

[00:53:37] Iris: That’s really important. Makes sense. Little more project labs this outside. And what it aepc those outside organizations that you’ve worked with. What do you think is an impact of kinda outsourcing some of that training to other organizations rather than having peer counsel team develop everything on their own?

[00:53:54] Phibi: Yeah, I think impact one of the financial aspect of oh, you have to pay a good amount for project lots. And also but it did [00:54:00] also take some. Some pressure off of the team to to do more of

[00:54:03] Phibi: for example, I think crisis training is difficult and so I think having outsourcing that made things a lot easier. And working with folks who , have had real, hands on experience in the field before, which is why I’ll talk about outsourcing think was helpful. We do have a balance.

[00:54:17] Phibi: We have. Training session. That’s just us. Yeah.

[00:54:20] Iris: Okay. And then is there any additional training that you think maybe would’ve been helpful to include? Or it would be helpful to include in the future? Yeah.

[00:54:30] Phibi: Oh, and then I actually have one more answer for the previous question as well.

[00:54:33] Iris: Sorry. Yeah. Go for it.

[00:54:34] Phibi: Yeah. And then also outsourcing to other organizations helps build relationships, with the other organizations too, for example, Asian American for counseling, they actually I think they were in the process trying to help other organizations start for counseling. And so it was kinda mutually beneficial and it didn’t feel transactional and I felt I genuine to do this with them. And then to go back to the current question about what additional training would be helpful yeah, I think rather than outsourcing to have a [00:55:00] direct hands on training us with knowledge that we have I think that would be cool. And then also some somatic training or for example, How do you self-regulate your body when you’re triggered? Those type of practices meditation or movement, I think those can help dreams.

[00:55:13] Iris: Awesome. Great. Okay. And these are the last set of questions. And this is thinking about the future of the program. So first do you think we should continue the program? What would the impact be if we did or if we didn’t?

[00:55:26] Phibi: I think we should continue the program. I think the only limiting factor is budget for training and just fast of the planning team at the time. I think, excuse me, I think it’s hard to gauge how future peer counseling programs would be , because this palette took more than. I think two years to implement. And so for example, the next one would just be , it would just be ready to go probably a year, less than a year, season for example. And so it would take less time to do it. And so it would actually would be easier to continue the program I think cause we have the foundation already set up and would just be revising over time.

[00:55:58] Phibi: I think in terms of more specific [00:56:00] impact, we’d be. We to get to train more and more folks at Lavender Phoenix. And it could even be in a similar way to how there’s seasonal fundraising where folks get trained every season ish. And so eventually, if folks wanted to, good number of folks at Lavender Phoenix could be trained in prayer counseling at some point, which is really cool. And also it helps us meet our healing justice goal. And it also accomplish the task of Supporting community members along the way.

[00:56:25] Iris: Awesome. Ok. And then my last question is, do you have any recommendations for continuing this program beyond the pilot?

[00:56:33] Iris: Yeah. Yeah, I think as I said, the seasonal format probably be good. But the key difference would. This pilot actually only has one session with a participant. But in the future, I think it would be great to have more than one session, multiple sessions. And impact of that would be , they see their pre more often or Yeah, more than once. Yeah, because you can’t just settle everything in just one session. Usually that consistency is really helpful for folks.

[00:56:54] Iris: Yeah. Okay. Do you have anything else that you would to say? Any of these questions?

[00:56:59] Iris: I’m good.

[00:56:59] Iris: [00:57:00] Awesome. Okay, then will stop the right now.

That concludes our episode if you want to organize alongside lavender Phoenix, you can join us. Follow us at L a V p H O E N I X laugh Phoenix on Instagram and find us at lavender, phoenix.org.

[00:57:19] Miko Lee: Thank you so much for joining us. Please check out our website, kpfa.org backslash program, backslash apex express to find out more about the show tonight and to find out how you can take direct action. We thank all of you listeners out there. Keep resisting, keep organizing, keep creating and sharing your visions with the world. Your voices are important. Apex express is produced by Miko Lee Jalena Keane-Lee and Paige Chung and special editing by Swati Rayasam. Thank you so much to the KPFA staff for their support have a great night.

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