United States Keeps Starting Conflicts It Can't Win

Connecting the Dots with Dr Wilmer Leon (audio)

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TRANSCRIPT:

Dr Wilmer Leon (00:00):
There we go.

Speaker 2 (00:38):
Connecting the dots with Dr. Wilmer Leon, where the analysis of politics, culture, and history converge.

Dr Wilmer Leon (00:46):
Welcome to the Connecting the Dots podcast with Dr. Wilmer Leon. I'm Wilmer Leon. Here's the point. We have a tendency to view current events as though they occur in a vacuum, failing to understand the broader historical context in which most events take place. During each episode of this podcast, my guests and I will have probing, provocative, and in-depth discussions that connect the dots between current events in the broader historic context in which they occur. This will enable you to get a better understanding and be able to analyze the events that impact the global village in which we live. On today's episode, we explore the genocide in Gaza, the development of conflict on the continent of Africa, and what does all this tell us about American foreign and domestic policy? And to help to connect these dots is my next guest. He holds the John Jay and Rebecca Moore's chair of history and African-American Studies at the University of Houston. He's one of the most prolific writers of our time. His latest books are entitled, I dare Say, A Gerald Horn Reader and Acknowledging Radical Histories. Dr. Gerald Horn, as always, welcome to the show and let's connect some dots.

Gerald Horne (02:05):
Thank you for inviting me.

Dr Wilmer Leon (02:08):
If you would please your two most recent books, I dare say, a Gerald Horn Reader and acknowledging radical histories. If you could tell us a little bit about these two most recent works that you've been able to put together.

Gerald Horne (02:23):
So the former work, I dare say, is a collection of articles and essays and reviews that written in recent decades dealing with such disparate matters as the anti-apartheid movement in the United States, the urban revolts in Los Angeles in the 1960s and the 1990s, the relationship between black nationalism and the rise of Japan and the first few decades of the 20th century, A number of articles of that vein and character. Now acknowledging radical histories is a conversation or a series of conversations I had with a younger scholar from Colorado where we talk about a number of books that are published over the years, which as you know, includes, works on the black press, on the music we call jazz on the colonial and post-colonial history of North America, slavery, Haitian Revolution, et cetera.

Dr Wilmer Leon (03:26):
To those varying titles that you've researched, you are one of the preeminent historians, again, one of the most phenomenal writers. What is it that motivates and drives your research? Because everyone, now, I don't have all of your books, but I counted them. I got about 17 of 'em. The topics are just incredibly broad. One thing we can never do with you is put you in a box or pigeonhole you. What drives your research?

Gerald Horne (04:04):
What drives my research? Well, I would say that particularly concerning research, it's curiosity. Curiosity about something that has not been addressed. And to that end, I should say that from my point of view, the research is much more invigorating than the writing. I mean, the writing is fine, but the writing is like work because what

Dr Wilmer Leon (04:29):
I meant, I'm sorry, what I meant was what piques your interest and motivates you? How do you pick your topics?

Gerald Horne (04:42):
How do I pick my topics? Well, I'll give you an example. I was watching a documentary just the other day on black British history, and it was shepherded by a black British subject. He happened to be in Sierra Leone. The Sierra Leone in West Africa was started as a direct result of the British being ousted from what is now in the United States in the late 18th century, and many so-called black loyalists wound up moving to Nova Scotia and Canada to London and eventually to Sierra Leone. And so as he was walking through the archive in Sierra Leone, it occurred to me that there might be an interesting story there concerning black loyalists. That is to say black people who fought against the formation of the United States of America post 1776 and then wound up in Sierra Leone. So I made a mental note to write the Sierra Leone archive to see if they have a website.

(05:42)
I know that in Sierra Leone they also had a major university for bay, F-O-U-R-A-H, and even though they've had rather crushing internal disputes, but not so much recently, probably more so in the previous decade, first decade or so of the 21st century, it seems to me there's a story there to be told. Now I'm not sure what the story will be. Likewise, this summer I'll probably be traveling to Cooperstown, New York to the Baseball Hall of Fame. I'm not sure what I'll come up with there with regard to a project, but I know I'm interested in the topic, like I'm interested in West African history, black loyalist history. So I'm sure after I poke around for a few days, I'll come up with a topic.

Dr Wilmer Leon (06:30):
Gotcha, gotcha. It's that constant state of wonder and always interested in looking for the next question that's really telling. Let's move to some of the current topics of the day. Israel's war in Gaza threatens to spill into Lebanon and beyond in response to over 75 years of occupation and oppression. On October 7th, Hamas launched an attack on the settler colony known as Israel. And in response to that attack, Israel has escalated its response to a genocidal devastation of Gaza. Hamas has confirmed the targeting of a deputy head in Dia, a residential area in southern Beirut. Saori was just recently killed. What are your thoughts on the US policy towards this genocide and how do you see this, it seems now to be expanding and escalating beyond the confines of Gaza?

Gerald Horne (07:48):
Well, obviously the United States is an aider and a better with regard to this enfolding genocide and the US authorities should be very careful because in light of the fact that the South African government pursuant to the Genocide Convention, has brought a case before the International Court of Justice, the World Court, there is a possibility that there will be figures, Lloyd Austin, Anthony Blinken, perhaps Mr by himself who may have to consult a lawyer or a travel agent before they step out of the jurisdiction of the United States of America. Recall that there is a topic under international law known as universal jurisdiction that led to the late Chilean dictator Gusto Pinoche being detained in London for a number of weeks pursuant to a warrant issued by a Spanish magistrate in light of Chile. The others to say the country of Mr. Pinoche torturing and slaughtering Spanish nationals. He barely escaped being brought before the Bar of Justice in Madrid.

(08:59)
And I dare say that a similar fate might befall some of these US authorities as well, but you mentioned the recent slang of a Hamas leader in Beirut. I'm afraid that there might be a further danger of the Israeli authorities and their US comrades seeking to expand this conflict. Already, you know that the Israeli authorities have said they're fighting a seven front war. Now, ordinarily countries tried to avoid fighting a two front war. Recall what happened during the US Civil War when President Lincoln was being encouraged to attack Great Britain because there was this reasonable suspicion that Great Britain was supporting the so-called Confederate states of America. And Mr. Lincoln said, well, one war at a time, my friends one war at a time. Right now, according to the Israelis, they're fighting wars from their point of view against Gaza, west Bank, Lebanon, Syria, Iran, Iraq, Yemen, and probably there are others that I have omitted.

(10:14)
Perhaps the most formidable challenge right now is not only in Gaza where despite these Israeli claims that they have killed 8,000 Hamas fighters, you still have an enormous toll with regard to Israeli casualties including deaths of Israeli soldiers. We all know that Hezbollah in Southern Lebanon has caused the abandonment of Northern Israel by reigning rockets from Southern Lebanon down on Northern Israel. In fact, you've had an abandonment effectively of Southern Israel as well. This is presenting an enormous problem for the Israeli economy because what happens when you have these areas abandoned, combined with Israel being heavily dependent upon reservists, that means that folks who ordinarily are involved in the economy sitting in office cubicles, stocking grocery shelves, are either now staying in hotels in Central Israel at the behest of the Israeli government. That is to say they're picking up the tab. Or alternatively, you have people on the front lines who are dodging bullets and projectiles.

(11:32)
You might've noticed that on New Year's Eve at Tel Aviv, the commercial and intellectual capital of Israel, you had the Hamas fighters shooting missiles at midnight as sort of a welcome to 2024 bravado into Tel Aviv, and this Bess speaks the enormous problems that the Israelis face. We saw that the United States has withdrawn this massive aircraft carrier, the Gerald or Ford, although it still has the Eisenhower carrier near Southern Yemen, where of course the Ansar Allah referred to as tis in the United States have been shooting missiles into I Iraq and Southern Israel, and of course coming into conflict with the US authorities as well. Now, if you monitor Israeli media, they are not necessarily happy about that. They feel that this might be the result of all of these press articles. We've been skimming in the US media in particular where supposedly there are these bitter arguments between Mr.

(12:45)
Biden and Mr. Netanyahu over Mr. Biden telling Mr. Netanyahu that he needs to stop bombing civilians and needs to have a more targeted campaign against amass fighters. And therefore, by withdrawing this drill, r Ford, the US authorities are saying, you're on your own Israel. Well, I'm not so sure because my understanding is that as opposed to this massive drill or forward or aircraft carrier, they're just substituting, they're sending destroyers amphibious carriers as well, which may be more useful in terms of a ground invasion, particularly into Southern Lebanon. So this war is spinning out of control. But let me also say that as a person, as noted who's been monitoring Israeli media, I must say it's quite striking to listen to a number of these Israeli commentators. Many of them of course have US accents, which is not as a surprise, but many of them, if you step outside of Israel and that conflict, they have a much more realistic viewpoint of international politics, which I guess is understandable.

(14:00)
What I mean by that is their analysis of the Russia Ukraine conflict is not altogether on board with the mainstream US analysis. Their analysis of the Chinese economy is not necessarily on board with the denigration of China that you hear routinely and regularly in the US media. And that Bess speaks the fact that they're a sovereign state that bespeaks the fact that they're watching very closely and carefully the incipient decline of us imperialism and are deciding perhaps to hedge their betts. And I think that that's a very wise decision because that's something that I would hope and I would wish that many of our Black American leaders would do that is to say they made a wager, whether they it or not, that there would be us hegemony indefinitely into the future. But obviously that's not the case with the rise of the Chinese economy.

(15:00)
But unlike these Israeli intellectuals I was just making reference to, I'm talking about right wing Israelis intellectual, it's not progressives. You don't see any sort of clue amongst many of our black American intellectuals and leaders as to whether or not they should reconfigure whether or not they should rejigger, but instead they're motoring ahead as if this were 1991. I should also say that this October 7th attack on Israel by the forces from Gaza reminds us as to how matters can change in a matter of hours. What I mean by that is few of us would acknowledge that on October 6th, a few months later, Israel would be fighting for its very survival. But that's basically what's at play Now. There's no guarantee that Israel as an apartheid state will continue to survive and continue to thrive, and that is something that I would once again hope that many of our black American intellectuals and leaders would consider when they contemplate the future of this country.

Dr Wilmer Leon (16:08):
To that point, I think a lot of folks either didn't listen to what the Hezbollah leader Nasra said on the eighth or the ninth when he gave his speech, one of the points that he was very, very clear to make or one of the questions he was very, very clear to ask was How long are you all willing to do this? And that question just to me was very reminiscent of the Vietnam question, the Kong question, the general Jaap question, who wrote the book? What people's war, people's army, how long are you willing to fight a counter insurgent urban gorilla war that you're not really prepared to fight? And the point that he was making was, we're here till the end because we're fighting for our freedom and we'll die standing on our feet. We refuse to keep living on our knees.

Gerald Horne (17:16):
Well, that's a very important ideological point. And speaking of which, one of the heartening aspects of this otherwise tragic situation is that because of this understandable focus on historic Palestine in the US media, you see that many of our friends on the left and some even beyond the left or beginning to refer to Israel as a settler colonial project. What's interesting about that is that I think it's also leading some on this side of the Atlantic to begin to look at the United States itself as a settler colonial project. That is to say that that was its origins hundreds of years ago before the settlers revolt of 1776. And speaking of which, it's not beyond the realm of imagination that as this conflict in historic Palestine unfolds that the 708,800,000 settlers on the West Bank occupied territory may be forced to evacuate as a part of a wider peace deal.

(18:28)
Now, I admit that that does not seem in the cards right now, particularly in light of the fact that all polls suggest that the Israeli populace, if anything, feels that their government is not hitting Gaza hard enough, believe it or not. So obviously to talk about settlers being forced to withdraw, it seems farfetched. But then again, it seemed farfetched on October 6th to talk about Israel fighting for its very survival. Now, if the way folks have analyzed the United States post 1776 would apply to Israel, if there's a settler's revolt on the West Bank of occupied territory, then you can expect if you use that US prism for many to see that as a step forward since after all, they're revolting against an Israeli regime, which we do not necessarily approve of, just like the settlers in the 18th century revolted against a British regime that many did not approve of.

(19:33)
I mean, that sounds ludicrous, perhaps fantastical, but I'm trying to make a point about how we should use this conflict in Israel and the focus on it to leverage it on our behalf so we can get a deeper analysis of our plight. You recall in my opening comments, I talked about the black loyalists. It's no secret. Historians have acknowledged for some time that the black population of North America, by several orders of magnitude did not stand with George Washington and Thomas Jefferson and James Madison and Patrick Henry. They did not engage in class collaboration, which has been a hallmark of the settler population of European descent across class lines obviously. And therefore they lost and many of them fled as noted to Nova Scotia, to London, to Sierra Leone, and then those who were left behind were treated atrociously because if you fight a war lose, you should expect to be treated atrociously.

(20:35)
Likewise, if there's a settlers revolt on the West Bank, do not expect the bulk of Palestinians to stand by the settlers. I mean, it's unfortunate I even have to make that statement. But in any case, to go back to a global view of this conflict, what's also striking is how there's daylight that's emerging between the us and its so-called European allies with regard to this conflict. Now, on the one hand, you have the federal Republic of Germany, which in some ways is more hawkish than the United States of America with regard to the Israel question, after all, Germany is occupied by US military forces. One of the most important US military bases in the world is the Ramstein in what used to be West Germany. But already you see that with regard to the United States trying to knock together a convoy to confront the Yemenis that initially it was announced that France, Spain, and Italy were on board, but that was premature.

(21:45)
They ultimately said that they would not fight or confront the Yemenis under US command. It would have to be under European Union Command or United Nations command or some other entity That Bess speaks how also that the alliances that the United States has come to rely upon may be in need of repair. And you also see that the need of repair with regard to this Ill-advised venture venture in Ukraine, where you see Hungary obviously not on board a key European union country, and France has been making noises about not being on board. And perhaps at some point those noises will be concretized. And likewise, with regard to the new Cold War against with China, which the Israeli right has been talking about quite a bit lately, you notice that France is not on board Germany, even though it's occupied territory is not on board because they see what side of the bread their bread is buttered on, and they want those deals from China whose manufacturing capacity dwarfs that of the United States. By certain measures, this economy is already larger than that of the United States. And so this crisis, this conflict in historic Palestine has exposed and revealed to the world not only the weaknesses and frailties of the Israeli regime, but also the weaknesses and frailties of its partner in arms speaking of the United States of America.

Dr Wilmer Leon (23:32):
And to that point, what you see when you look at the dynamics in the region, you've mentioned Hezbollah in the north, you've got Syria, you've got Anah in Yemen or the Houthis as they are known, and they are all acting on one hand in their best interest, but their common enemy is the United States and it's aircraft carrier in the region known as Israel. And on October 7th, there was a lot of analysis that was saying, oh, Hezbollah was behind this, that Hezbollah was collaborative. And again, Hassan Raah was very clear. He said, we weren't involved on November 7th, but we're in on November 8th, October. We weren't in on October 7th, but we're in on October 8th. So if you would talk about those dynamics, particularly Anah, because they seem to be wanting this smoke, they seem to be wanting this fight, who would've thought that a small poor country like Yemen would now be having the international impact that it's having on world trade as it is selectively attacking ships that are traversing that body of water?

Gerald Horne (25:04):
Well, there's quite a backstory to go back a year or so recall that the Ansara law was in a death match with its neighbor in Saudi Arabia and fighting the Saudis to a standstill. But then what happens is that China brokers a peace accord between Iran, a close ally of the Yemenis and the Saudis, and then of course, that leads to a drawdown of the conflict between the Saudis and the Yemenis. And note that with regard to this, so-called Convoy, that the United States is trying to knock together for a confrontation with the Yemenis that the Saudis have not joined in, in fact, the only neighboring country that has joined in as the Seychelles, which is far distant from the Saudi Yemeni border, far distant from the Red Sea and far distant from the Suez Canal as well.

Dr Wilmer Leon (26:11):
Are you referring to Joe Biden's coalition of the willing that seems to be unwilling? Is that what you're

Gerald Horne (26:18):
Referring coalition of the willing that's unraveling.

Dr Wilmer Leon (26:21):
And

Gerald Horne (26:23):
It's understandable because if you know anything about US foreign policy in recent years and decades is that Washington is an unreliable partner. Despite spending a trillion dollars a year on the Pentagon, they were chased out of Afghanistan in August, 2021. They were able to overthrow Libya in 2010, 2011, but obviously have turned that North African country into a kind of charnel house. They were Ed in Vietnam, 19 75, 19 53, after sending thousands of troops to the Korean peninsula, they were forced into a truce, which is held until recently. Although keep in mind that the North Koreans who fought the United States to a standstill in 1953 has been suggesting that they're willing to rumble again if the United States does not stop its provocations. So it's understandable why the Saudis would not be enthusiastic about joining the So-called Coalition of the Willing. But I should also go back a bit further than the past year.

(27:33)
Recall that during the height of the Cold War culminating in 1991 with the collapse of the Soviet Union, you had a socialist party in control of Aidan. Aidan, of course, is a southern Yemen. It's now a launching pad for attacks on Israeli flagships or ships set it to Israel. But what happens that the United States as ever could not leave well enough alone, it did everything in its power to destabilize that particular regime and succeeded. And so now they're faced with an even more formidable challenge coming from Ansar, Allah, Allah. And then if you look at Syria, for example, recall that one of the criticisms that has been made of Mr. Obama was that Juan had an opportunity circa 2013 to bomb Syria and the regime in Damascus of President Al Assad that he backed down the hawks, thought that he should have moved forward even though he tried to say that he did not have support from London, the usual sidekick in these imperialist adventures of US imperialism.

(28:54)
And he did not necessarily have support in Congress as well, but in any case, that did not prevent the United States from supporting under the table various disreputable forces, including forces with suspicious ties to Al-Qaeda and to isis, but for an intervention by the Iranians and Moscow, perhaps President al-Assad in Damascus would've been overthrown by now. So this is a very open and notorious train of events that I'm describing. It also sheds light on why Egypt is not necessarily enthusiastic about joining this convoy to help to circumvent the Yemeni defacto blockade on the Red Sea because the Egyptians get a significant portion of their government revenues from operating the Suez Canal about 9 billion annually. But the Egyptians also have reason to suspect the good intentions of US imperialism particularly, and in light of the fact that the US imperialism is backing this genocidal campaign in Gaza.

(30:20)
And to that end, I should mention that there's the Rafa crossing between Gaza and Egypt and the scuttlebutt from Israeli sources is that you should expect a more massive attack on that Rafa crossing, which in some ways would be a declaration of war against Egypt, believe it or not. To that end, Jordan was not on that list of seven fronts where Israel is supposedly now involved in conflict. But if you monitor Israeli media, they're beginning to raise serious questions about the pacifist intentions of the Jordanians. I recall that a significant percentage, if not the bulk of the Jordanian population is Palestinians. They're particularly important with regard to skilled labor, with regard to engineers and physicians and all the rest. And the Israelis are now charging that they suspect that there is a smuggling of weapons from into the West Bank occupied territory, which is allowing the Palestinians on the West Bank to resist more stoutly.

(31:42)
The incursions made by the 800,000 settlers who by the way, are armed with rifles from the United States of America. And so this seven front war easily could turn into an eight front war, a nine front war with folks in your audience. That is to say the US nationals and citizens basically picking up the tab at the same time when homelessness stalks the land, when hunger is out of control, when many of our children do not have adequate textbooks or they're fed inadequate versions of history per Governor DeSantis of Florida. And so it reminds me of the slogan raised in 1972 by Democratic presidential candidate George McGovern, the senator from South Dakota, when he said, come home United States of America, he was referring to come home from Vietnam. Now we can say, come home United States of America, come home from these wild-eyed schemes of war and conflict in West Asia.

Dr Wilmer Leon (32:51):
And you and I for the last 30 minutes, we've been discussing Gaza, we've been discussing the settler colony of Israel, we've been discussing Yemen and Anah. Why should African-Americans care? That is something on my radio show inside the issues on SiriusXM that people call in and ask all the time. Wilmer, you spend all this time talking about the Palestinians, Wilmer, you spend all the time pick up what's happening in Venezuela, what's happening in Argentina, what's happening in Peru, why should we care? Now, you just touched on a bit of it, but explain to my audience as African-Americans, why does this matter to us?

Gerald Horne (33:46):
Well, first of all, I pay quite a bit in taxes, and I'm sure there are many in your audience who do the same politics amongst other things is about where do your tax dollars go. Now, if those who call into your other programs and object to talking about foreign policy, I guess they don't care where their tax dollars go. Well, sorry, I do care where my tax dollars go. I just mentioned that a trillion dollars is spent annually on the Pentagon, which can't seem to win a war anywhere. So obviously there is a mismatch of revenue, taxes, and purposes war when we should have a match between revenue, taxes, and education and healthcare. Secondly, with regard to historic Palestine in particular, that conflict could trigger World War iii. Now, maybe there are those in your audience who think that there's some sort of black neutron bomb.

(34:54)
You recall that the neutron bomb under Ronald Wilson Reagan, it killed people, but left property standing. I guess they think that a neutron bomb would kill everybody except black people, and so therefore we don't have to be concerned. Well, I think that that's science fiction of the worst kind, and then we also know that there is a disproportionate percentage of black people in the military. It's no accident as historians like to say that the top military man and the top civilian in the military are both black Americans. Lloyd Austin, chief of the Pentagon, CQ Brown, the head of the Joint Chiefs of Staff. You might've noticed that in the anti-affirmative action decision rendered by the US Supreme Court about eight or nine months ago, they had a special carve out for US military academies for West Point, the Air Force Academy in Colorado Springs, the Naval Academy, and Annapolis, Maryland, because those who rule this country recognize that because of the horrendous history that we've suffered, that's bred a culture of fighting.

(36:08)
I wrote a whole book about boxing where I tried to explain why there was a disproportionate percentage of black Americans excelling in the sweet science, Muhammad Ali, Joe Lewis, Jack Johnson, sugar Ray Leonard to list us long and likewise, that feeds and bleeds into the military. You know that during the conflict in Vietnam, one of the startling aspects of that genocidal conflict was the disproportionate number of black Americans who were killed during this war because we were overrepresented not to mention the disproportionate percentage who were subject to court martial and other kinds of pulverizing penalties. So there are so many reasons of why we should be concerned beyond just being humanitarians, beyond just being folks who are concerned about our own future. Because when these wars happen, inevitably what happens is that it puts wind in the sails of many of our chief antagonists right here at home. And they might get the bright idea that if the Israelis can liquidate Willy-nilly, the Palestinians, perhaps the Israeli comrades here in North America can liquidate Willy-nilly their long-time, long-term antagonists, speaking of black folk. So it's a shame that we have to spend time explicating the obvious because explicating the obvious prevents us from going on to discuss more naughty and difficult questions to our detriment.

Dr Wilmer Leon (37:56):
You mentioned the Zionist settler colony of Israel and a seven front war, and what we see playing out right before us in terms of American foreign policy is I'll just say a multi-front war. We've got the United States and Ukraine, we have the United States in Gaza, we have the United States trying its damnedest to pick a fight with China. So those are three fronts. Then we've got Venezuela and Guyana with the United States convincing Britain to send a ship over there. We've got the United States involved now in Argentina. So help me understand who it is that seems to think that a getting involved in these multi-front conflicts is a good idea, let alone who thinks we can win. To your earlier point, we haven't won anything since 1953. And the other point is we're the ones that are starting the conflicts, we're starting fights, we can't win. I don't get the logic, and I know there isn't any,

Gerald Horne (39:22):
Well, I'm sure that those who are nit pickers would point to the successful invasion of Grenada in 1983,

Dr Wilmer Leon (39:34):
And Panama

Gerald Horne (39:35):
Could sit comfortably in Yankee Stadium in the Bronx. I guess you could count that as a victory. But I think in

Dr Wilmer Leon (39:44):
Order Panama,

Gerald Horne (39:45):
On Panama, and of course,

Dr Wilmer Leon (39:46):
Oh wait, I left one out because now we're also trying to get Kenya to be the menstrual black face on white foolishness as we try to invade Haiti.

Gerald Horne (39:58):
I think that in order to understand these conflicts, you have to understand the military industrial complex. That is to say, if you look at the stock of Lockheed Martin, look at the stock of Raytheon, look at the stock of Boeing, or look at the front page of the New York Times a day or so ago talking about how high level Pentagon officials like Esper, the Pentagon chief under Mr. Trump and Top Generals, they're now defecting to Silicon Valley with all of these harebrained science fiction schemes about new weapons that they expect the Pentagon to pick up the tab for. So the US military and the Pentagon is basically a slush fund for the 1%. And obviously it does not matter to a degree whether or not the Pentagon is fit for purpose or whether or not the Pentagon actually is spending tax dollars in a manner that will allow us imperialism to overthrow regimes.

(41:08)
Of course, US imperialism, to be fair, was able to overthrow the regime in Libya, for example, about a decade or so ago. However, I should say that with regard to China, if the United States cannot adequately confront Russia a country of 150 million compared to the United States, 330 million, not to mention the United States being backed up by the federal public of Germany, Germany, 82 million, France and Britain, 60 million each. Not to mention Poland, which by some measures is spending more on the military proportionately and per capita than a number of its Western European allies combined. They are obviously not able to subdue Russia and Ukraine. So how are they going to subdue China? A country with a population of 1.3 billion, which as noted has an economy by some measures larger than that of the United States of America. We have the Taiwanese elections coming up in less than two weeks. Taiwan is the island of 20 million or so off the southern coast of China that China claims as its own.

(42:22)
The United States, of course, sometimes explicitly, sometimes implicitly would like to see Taiwan declare independence, which would violate the pacs with China going back to the era of not only Richard Nixon, but Jimmy Carter, that would be a flashpoint. That would be a red line for the people's republic of China. So far, the United States has been able to sign up the Philippines to be a kind of pit bull nipping at the heels of the people's Republic of China. I don't think the United States should be counting on Australia, although Australia supposedly is part of Aus, Australia, United States, Japan, India, et cetera. And so once again, Washington is playing with fire because it keeps sticking its nose into business that does not concern it. And at the same time, thus far, it has been able to escape without any substantial blows or at least military blows to the homeland.

(43:34)
But that lucky training of events is not inevitable, and in any case, even if there's not a military blow to the homeland, there is all manner of collateral damage, which you can see in the streets of Washington DC in terms of the tents for the homeless, you can see it with regard to the streets of Portland, Oregon with folks sleeping on sidewalks as if they're seeking to emulate a Calcutta in the 1940s. So at some point, I think that the majority of the citizenry of this country will have to realize that the present course is not sustainable and that a course correction is long overdue.

Dr Wilmer Leon (44:25):
We saw recently Secretary of Defense, Lloyd Austin, go to Kenya, sign a five year mutual defense pact with Kenya as the United States is trying to convince Kenya that they need again to be the black face on American imperialism and go into Haiti. The Kenyan Supreme Court has said, wait, not so fast. And I think on around the 25th or 26th of this month, we'll get a decision from the Kenyan Supreme Court. When I saw the photograph of Secretary Austin with his counterpart from Kenya signing this agreement, it made me wonder if the United States is trying to buy a bulwark in Kenya as we see Niger fading and we're seeing a turn anti colonialist turn in a number of other African countries. Is the United States trying to buy a friend in Kenya?

Gerald Horne (45:26):
Well, that's a possibility because if you look at East Africa in general, particularly East Africa that abuts the Red Sea, which we've already made reference to, that region is on fire right now. I mean, look at Ethiopia, one of the most populous nations on the continent, which just had this internal conflict with regard to Tig Gray. The latest news is that the Ethiopians in search of an outlet to the Red Sea, which they lost when their former province Eritrea seceded from Ethiopia about three or so decades ago, they've just cut a deal with Somali land, which is not a recognized nation, although it's part of the larger Somalia. And now what's happening is that Ethiopia now has that outlet to the Red Sea through Somali land. The Somalis are in high dungeon, they're very upset. Now, some of you may think that there's nothing they can do about it because after all, they have their own internal problems with Al-Shabaab, but oftentimes you need an external issue like Ethiopia to get Somalis to rally around the flag.

(46:44)
And so this could lead to an explosion on the Red Sea, and you mentioned Kenya. We should not see it as accidental that the first, thus far, only US president had roots, African ancestry had roots in Kenya. Kenya has had a long-term, long-time relationship in the United States of America. As a matter of fact, I wrote a book on Kenya some years ago, and what I pointed out was something that I would hope other scholars would follow up on, which is that Great Britain, which had this massive empire was always looking for those who could be defined as white to staff its empire. And if you look at the early history of Kenya, going back to the 1890s, some of the key personnel happened to be Euro-Americans, for example. And all through the decades leading up to independence from Kenya in 1963, you had a substantial number of Euro Americas.

(47:54)
As a matter of fact, I start my book talking about the British committing atrocities against the so-called Mal Mal Revolt pre 1963. The figures that I focus on are Euro Americans committing atrocities against Kenya pre 1963. So there's this very close relationship between Nairobi and Washington. That's why this attempt to have Kenya come to police, Haiti should not be seen as a shock, nor a surprise, particularly since the President Ruta now in power, many of us were surprised by his victory in the election of late. He was not necessarily the anointed successor of his predecessor, speaking of President Hu Kenyata. And so he, by his own admission as a hustler, as a matter of fact, that was his slogan, he wants to have a hustler society. Well, this Hustler society might involve accepting dollars from the US Treasury in return for doing dirty deeds in the Caribbean.

Dr Wilmer Leon (49:20):
Where's the Congressional Black Caucus? Where's the naacp? Where's the voice? The conscience of the Congress, I wrote a piece a while ago, is the conscience of the Congress unconscious, particularly as it relates to the invasion of Haiti. You've got people like Hakeem Jeffries and Kamala Harris trying to go down to Racom and twist arms to get some of the Caribbean countries to have backed his play. They all said no, which is why the United States, I believe, which is why the United States wound up in Kenya and a willing recipient of America's larges in terms of again, being the minstrel face on American imperialism. Where is the conscience of the Congress here?

Gerald Horne (50:11):
Well, with regard to the Congress, there's a split in the Congressional Black Caucus, particularly with regard to Palestine, where you have a stalwarts like Cory Bush of St. Louis and Andre Carson of Indiana, who happens to be a Muslim, some Lee of Western Pennsylvania, Jamal Bowman of Bronx, Westchester, New York calling for a ceasefire. And as a result, the Israeli lobby, the Zionist lobby, is pledging to spend a hundred million dollars or more during the 2024 electoral cycle to make sure they do not return to Congress. Those stalwarts do not include the aforementioned speaker in waiting. So-called honking Jefferies. Wait a

Dr Wilmer Leon (50:52):
Minute, wait a minute. I'm sorry to interrupt you, but I get a sense of some hypocrisy or inconsistency here because you have APAC openly threatening and admitting to what I would interpret as involving themselves in American elections. But somehow if China is alleged to have done it, or if Russia is alleged to have done it, that's the reason for us to go to war. Is it me or is that some sense of hypocrisy?

Gerald Horne (51:27):
Well, obviously when we come to power, we'll have to have a thorough investigation of the Zionist lobby. As a matter of fact, I was just rereading DU autobiography and I got into the chapter where he talks about when he was indicted 1951, allegedly being the agent of a foreign power because he was campaigning against nuclear weapons and campaigning for peace. Now, fortunately, he was able to escape prison at the age of 83, but that tells you how seriously, the US Justice Department, at least at one time took this question of registering as foreign agents. But in any case, the list of stalwarts that I was reciting does not include Gregory Meeks of Southeast Queens, the ranking Democrat on the House Foreign Affairs Committee, and I could go on in this vein. So obviously we have some house cleaning to do with regard to these elections.

(52:31)
Setting aside the Israeli lobby, which you may recall dangled a cool 20 million before the nose of Hill Harper, the actor who was running for office in the state of Michigan, if he would go after Congresswoman Rashida Tib of Michigan, the only Congress person of Palestinian origin in the US Congress. But I would caution and warn the Israeli lobby that they need to pay more attention to what's going on in Israel, because as I said, as I monitor the Israeli media, I see much more understanding even on the Israeli right, by the way, about the global correlation of forces. I mean, for example, you just heard the news, I'm sure that the Zionist lobby forced Claudine gay, the first black woman, president Farber, to walk the plank because she was not vociferous enough in terms of denouncing amass post October 7th, and they gen up these plagiarism charges against her.

(53:42)
And you also see that it'll be quite easy as US imperialism goes into decline for the Zionists to be scapegoated, although obviously that would be a simple minded explanation. But it reminds me of the who Lost China debate post 1949 after the Communist Party came to power. It wasn't the United States to lose China. It didn't belong to the United States, but certainly that led to the destruction of careers, et cetera. And already, perhaps to follow up on this point, there may be members of the Zionist lobby who are paying attention. For example, Nelson Pelts, a car carrying member of the 1% who is fighting a gorilla war to replace board members of Disney, which has been hemorrhaging cash because of a futile attempt to keep up in the streaming wars with Netflix. He's also on the board of Unilever, a major European corporation among his assets, or Ben and Jerry's ice cream.

(54:50)
Ben and Jerry's, as you know, are staunch and stern critics of Israel. And what happened is that the Simon Wiesenthal Center of Southern California, which is a leading member of the pro-Israel camp in this country, then went after Ben and Jerry's, and then Nelson Peltz went after Simon Wiesenthal Center. He resigned from their board. I found that to be extraordinary. Perhaps he's keeping up with the news. Perhaps he recognizes the danger that happens when you have the Zionist lobby overreaching. And the analogy I've often brought into play is a major force in US society, circa 18 60, 18 61 who owned billions of dollars in assets in the body, some enslaved Africans, my ancestors likely yours as well, and they overreached. They decided to go for the gusto and try to overthrow the Lincoln government so that they could perpetuate the enslavement of Africans forevermore. Well, they were a powerful force.

(56:01)
After all, Virginians and slave owners that controlled the White House had controlled the US Supreme Court were disproportionately represented in the State Department and the Treasury Department, et cetera, but they overreached and wound up losing everything that is to say losing their most valuable property. That is to say their investment in enslaved Africans. And now Israel might be on the verge of replicating that dastardly example. And I trust, and I hope that the Zionist lobby will not be caught with its pants down and will recognize that it needs to draw back. It needs to cool its jets, it needs to cool the hotheads. Otherwise it may find itself in an analogous boat that would couple them with the unlamented departure of the Confederate states of America.

Dr Wilmer Leon (56:58):
Isn't that overreach the very same problem that the United States is facing on the global scale as again, we look at the failure in Ukraine and newsflash to folks that war is lost as we look at the fight that the United States is trying to pick, as we look at the development of bricks and the growth of bricks, as we look at what's happening again in Peru and what's happening in Argentina and what's happening in Bolivia and what's happening in Venezuela, the United States, and again, the United States trying to overthrow Haiti, well, not overthrow, but reinve because it already controls the government, what's left of the government. So we're transitioning from the unipolar to the multipolar, and with the United States fomenting, all of this unrest has to a great degree sanctioned itself right out of the party because a lot of the countries that I've mentioned, Russia, China, Iran, Venezuela, they have all developed relationships. They're developing currencies to lessen the impact, if not eliminate the impact of American sanctions. So all of that isn't that overreach what the American Empire has been experiencing, and we will look back 10 years from now and say, that was the beginning of the end.

Gerald Horne (58:24):
Well, certainly it's overreach. I mean, I'm glad you mentioned Argentina because in a message to comrade earlier today, I was drawing an analogy between the new government in Argentina coming to Power about three weeks ago under President Belay and the Zionist lobby, because Argentina had the rare honor of being asked to join the bricks, Brazil, Russia, India, China, South Africa, which is the rising challenger to us, imperialist hegemony, but for various reasons that need not detain us here, they slapped the side, that invitation because they're making a bet on the pass, on the continuation,

(59:09)
On the continuation of dollar hegemony. And if people were trying to figure that out, you may want to add to your equation the fact that by some measures, Argentina has more psychiatrists per capita than any other country in the world. I mean, they're trying to sort out who they are. I mean, they border Brazil, which has the largest black population west of Nigeria, and there's this real hysteria and fear in Buenos Aires about being considered, so-called Third World. And so joining an alliance led by an Asian China and including a heavily black Brazil was something that apparently among other things, offended their racial sensibilities, or I should say racist sensibilities, but do not fret because I do not expect President Malay to serve out his term. A general strike has been called within days. I expect them to be driven out of office, not least because Pricess are going through the roof.

(01:00:15)
It reminds me of when the United States had exerted sanctions against Zimbabwe some years ago after Zimbabwe had moved to extrapolate the land of the settlers, reversing the fruits of settler colonialism, which still was quite rare, and the United States tried to drive the economy into the ditch, and so you could go into a tavern and harra the capital and spend maybe 1 million Zimm dollars to order a beer. By the time you drank the beer and was time to pay the tab, you had to pay 5 million or perhaps even 5 trillion Zim dollars. That's how terrible inflation was, and that's where Argentina is heading. Now at Lee Zimbabwe had the excuse that it was trying to do right by its landless population. It was trying to reverse the fruits of settler colonialism, and so therefore, it was fighting a just war. Argentina does not have that excuse. It was invited into the bricks.

(01:01:19)
It was invited to join the winning side. As a matter of fact, I've made the joke that perhaps it's not a joke that I'm hoping that the Bricks has individual memberships because I'd like to join the bricks, quite frankly, and get off this sinking ship known as the United States of America. So certainly, once again, I think that as I monitor the Israeli media, they recognize what they're up against. But despite that, they're not necessarily curtailing their genocidal war campaign. I guess the best you can say is that they know what they're up against, but they're saying full speed ahead. And it reminds me of the book by the journalist Seymour Hearst, a Samson option, where he suggested that in a crisis like the biblical figure, Samson, the Israelis would bring down the temple on all of us, which would of course mean triggering World War iii, which could mean destruction of Israel, perhaps even destruction of its sidekick in Washington.

Dr Wilmer Leon (01:02:33):
Dr. Gerald Horn, as always, my brother, thank you so much for your time. I greatly, greatly appreciate that analysis. Thank you so much for giving me your time, giving us your time, and joining us today.

Gerald Horne (01:02:45):
Thank you for inviting me,

Dr Wilmer Leon (01:02:47):
Folks. Thank you so much for listening to the Connecting the Dots podcast with me, Dr. Wiler Leon. Stay tuned for the new episodes every week. Also, please follow and subscribe. Leave a review, share the show, follow me on social media. You can find all the links below in the show description. And remember, this is where analysis of politics, culture, and history, converge and talk without analysis is just chatter, and we don't chatter here on connecting the dots. See you again next time. Until then, I'm Dr. Warmer Leon. Have a great one. Peace and blessings. I'm out

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