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CC#31: Artificial Intelligence w/ Trevor Goertzen
Manage episode 464025116 series 3589047
In Cool Coffee 31, Mr. Trevor Goertzen, former KPA communications director, catches us up on his most recent endeavor, that of AI in the schools. Now with SchoolAI, Trevor talks about how this new frontier for schools can, and is already, changing things in the classroom and schools...for the better! For those wondering about AI, Trevor peels back some of the possibilities and issues in this Cool Coffee w/ Kansas Principals.
Connect with Trevor Goertzen:
- X: @Goertzen_edu
- Connect thru email at trevor@schoolai.com
(full transcript and chapters of the episode below)
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AI Generated Chapters (do not account for intro--time is 30 seconds off)
00:00Introduction to Cool Coffee and AI in Education
03:01Trevor Goertzen's Journey in Education
06:01The Evolution of the Kansas Principals Association Podcast
08:55The Role of AI in Education
11:57Transforming Education with AI Tools
15:01AI as a Personalized Learning Assistant
18:11Addressing Concerns About AI in Schools
20:54Creating an Academic Ecosystem with AI
23:50The Future of AI in Education
25:59Language Accessibility and AI
29:58AI Literacy and Responsibility
31:59AI's Role in School Administration
35:03Practical AI Applications for Educators
39:04The Human Element in AI
41:03The Future Landscape of AI in Classrooms
AI Generated Transcript
Rick Sola (00:01.734)
Hello and welcome to another edition of Cool Coffee. I have here with me today a very familiar voice, the original voice of the KPA podcast when it was Kansas principals. Listen up. It's Mr. Trevor Gertson from School AI. Hello, Trevor.
Trevor Goertzen (00:20.82)
for a while Rick. Excited to be here and appreciate the opportunity to share with Kansas administrators and a little bit about the history of the Listen Up podcast and now Cool Coffee by Rick Sola. So love it man, appreciate the opportunity.
Rick Sola (00:33.202)
Yeah. No, it's awesome. And I guess before we get started, I will just give you a quick shout out. So you did your podcast and I've listened to several of those and we talked and you were more than willing to receive my outreach and talk through with me how you did your podcast and so much of how this got started. I credit to you. So I really appreciate it. It's been a lot of fun and
Now it's just, awesome to have you here on the show talking about your, your new endeavor with, with artificial intelligence and school AI.
Trevor Goertzen (01:10.97)
You're gonna scare some people off talking about AI too much here, Rick, but yeah, it's been quite a journey. If you had asked me, man, three years ago, if I would be in my home office talking about AI, I would have never believed it. I had always anticipated being a principal and then an HR director and a superintendent.
That is what I assumed my career path would be when I had the honor of serving as a teacher and principal. The good Lord had different plans though and I'm thrilled to have the opportunity to continue working with teachers, continue working with students through the capacity that I do now at School AI. It's been a challenge to get out of directly being within the school system. There's definitely some things you get used to when you spend the majority of your career within kind of the day to day.
ebb and flow of public education, then you step out of that into startup culture, it is a drastic shift. And it's a change that I'm still getting used to as I answer my third year of being out, and no longer specifically. I still teach, I still teach for a university in Arkansas, so I'm an adjunct professor, I teach education law.
and I teach educational technology. So that'll be about my seventh, eighth year of doing that. So I still like to say I'm an active educator. At the collegiate level, I teach graduate school, and so that keeps me as engaged and possible. And every once in while, I think about coming back and subbing, just for the fun of it, just to get back in the school building and subsum. But I'm not sure about that. I don't know, Rick, if you ever need any subs, so.
Rick Sola (02:48.4)
Well, we do need subs actually and we'll take dibs on you here actually. Subs can be a short supply especially as we get into some of these, I don't know, some of these colder months or even the warmer months or Fridays or Tuesdays or you know, whatever. Yeah.
Trevor Goertzen (02:54.454)
You
Trevor Goertzen (03:01.976)
Yes.
Any day. Red Friday, red Monday, you pick it, you pick it.
Rick Sola (03:10.266)
Yeah, yeah, as we record this, it's January 3rd and we're like on the cusp of snowmageddon as it's getting talked about a couple days away from, I don't know, up to 15 inches or so. So who knows, who knows? But you mentioned kind of being out of the school for the last three years. One thing I like to do on the show is have guests share about their road to the chair that they're currently in.
Trevor Goertzen (03:16.298)
Snowmageddon.
Trevor Goertzen (03:24.696)
We'll see.
Rick Sola (03:37.732)
you've gone through the principal chair, but kind of going all the way back to your beginnings in education to what led you here today.
Trevor Goertzen (03:46.99)
Yeah, so it started in 2000, man, 2001, even in college. I went to Hardin University in Arkansas and even then I was starting to fill in in schools and help out. I knew I wanted to be a teacher from a very early age and so that was the path I wanted. So we even started doing a little bit of subbing while I was in college but I got my first job at Prairie Star Middle School, Blue Valley Schools in 2006.
I spent nine years in the classroom as a social studies English language arts teacher, coached football, wrestling, track and field, driver's ed instructor, summer camp counselor. I was an 1860s reenactor at a Haffey stage coach and I was a blacksmith for a couple summers. Like you do a little bit of everything when you're a teacher just to make extra cash and stay busy. One of the highlights though is I got my national board certification.
Rick Sola (04:33.142)
awesome.
Trevor Goertzen (04:41.546)
in my eighth year of teaching. And so I went through the national board process. That was an incredible process. Still, I think one of the most beneficial things an educator can do is go through the national board process as a teacher. From there, I went and worked at district office in Blue Valley for a year. was essentially what you might call like an instructional coach. We were called the educational support team at the time.
name changes every couple of years, but I was a mentor for first year teachers as well as national board candidates. Spent a year doing that, absolutely loved it. As you know, when you kind of change levels, you change perspectives. And when I had that position,
with the district and Blue Valley had 30,000 students, 30 some schools. I went from knowing about what was going on in one middle school to now I'm looking at nine middle schools, five high schools, 30 elementaries and it changes your perspective on how education works and how it operates. And that was a really pivotal year for me when I worked in district office, but it also made me realize I want to give back to kids. And so that following year, an opportunity at Spring Hill came up and I headed to Spring Hill.
and I spent six years as the principal assistant and then principal in Spring Hill Middle School. That was pre-COVID, during COVID and post-COVID. So I still vividly remember Friday the 13th. Friday the 13th, Black Friday of that year. I just hired the best teacher ever and I was so excited because we were like, can we bring her in for an interview? This is Friday the 13th. We're like, we're doing it. We know there's something out there, but she's coming in. Still one of the best teachers I've ever hired in the Mississippi.
Rick Sola (06:00.658)
The best of all worlds.
Trevor Goertzen (06:20.718)
But yeah, that was a real turning point in lot of ways. It was those years of COVID. It really kind of made you kind of pause, think back and reflect. Had an incredible staff in those six years in Spring Hill. It was a 6'8 building, great team. Front office staff, the assistants that I worked with, the coaches, administration. Really, really enjoyed it. But one of the things I loved the most about my time as a principal was the Kansas Principals Association.
And at the time, it was actually broken up into elementary and secondary. And so we had two, essentially two different organizations that operated, your elementary principal association and your secondary principals association. And so about midway through, we merged those together into the Kansas principals association. And that was an incredible experience, both as a part of it. And then I don't even remember when, midway through,
I got to know the then director of it, it's a gentleman named Brett Church. He asked me if I had any interest in being the communication director. I was like, this sounds like fun. What does it do? He's like, I don't know, figure it out. And so somewhere along the way, I think I just heard myself and the other principal Rod Sprague, I just heard George Kuros talk. And one of the things that George Kuros had said was something to the extent of, if you're not telling your story, someone else will.
And that made me really realize that people don't know what's going on in a school. They don't know. They have all these assumptions about what's happening, but they really didn't know what was going on day to day. So the original dream was let's interview Kansas principals and let's have them tell their school story. Tell them the highs, the lows, the good, the bad that's going on and try to humanize administrators.
And so that's really where it started was Listen Up was designed to humanize Kansas principals, Kansas administrators, tell the stories that other people are not going to hear. And it was so, so cool. Just not only for me professionally, and I'm sure you've noticed this, Rick, like you learn more when you hear someone else share.
Trevor Goertzen (08:28.482)
But getting to hear what people are doing across the state, whether it was in small little Galena, Kansas, or a big district like Olathe, and I forget his name now, but at the time he was Olathe South High School Principal. Now he's somewhere there in the board office. Clint Alberts, he did an episode. I shared it with the superintendent at the time, and he then shared it out to the entire district, and shared it out in the parents and community.
Rick Sola (08:44.594)
Clint Albers.
Trevor Goertzen (08:55.95)
Email it gives a source of pride and that was what I would actually hear again again from superintendents Even from board members. It was there was a source of pride when the community could hear what was going on with their administrators and that was such a cool experience to know that we were we were a part of that at kpa is Share the stories learning together celebrating what each and every different school was a part of
So what started out as just kind of an idea because of a George Kouros session kind of blossomed into three years of a great experience sharing with principals across Kansas. And so glad you're able to carry it forward, Rick, and continue to keep bringing those voices out for administrators as well.
Rick Sola (09:42.054)
Well, it has been a lot of fun and that's one of the biggest values. And I've said this multiple times on this show, but just that the connections from across the state, hearing what's going on across the state and by my goal, if you will, is to share those really positive things that are happening all across the state and buildings all across the state with others in the same position. And just in my time with KPA and sitting down next to
principles in other communities in other parts of the state. there's just so much value in that you can't replace it. then, you know, of course, and you probably know this selfishly, just being the one to be able to converse with principles on this platform. You know, I'm I'm learning a ton. I'm taking notes as I'm having these conversations. And, you know, that's my hope is that someone's listening and being able to do the same thing and kind of scratch your head like, oh, that's a really good idea. I've done this for 20 years, but I haven't thought of it that way before.
And so let's give it a shot.
Trevor Goertzen (10:42.26)
from. could be itty bitty schools, huge schools. They all have great ideas and great things to share.
Rick Sola (10:47.632)
Yeah. So you are in a different world now. You're in an artificial world. No, artificial intelligence.
Trevor Goertzen (10:52.514)
Yeah.
Rick Sola (10:58.918)
But with my own staff and full transparency, guess to kind of make a long story short, back to USA, Kansas in the spring of 24, my administrative team, we went and one of my assistant principals attended an AI session. And we started talking about this throughout the course of the school year. we had, both of us ironically had connections to you and
reached out and so the full transparency is, is I asked you to come out and just kind of present a little bit on AI and I described it to my staff as the new frontier. And I don't know if that's totally accurate or Trevor if you would even agree with that, but I kind of just view it as it's, at least at our point, the way I feel anyway, it's very much, there's a lot of unknown, we're not really sure. We have some story, you talk about telling your story, some people will tell the AI story.
It can be pretty either bleaker or scary, or it could be something that's, you know, all something, something different altogether. But he came in, did a great job, super engaging, just to kind of bring some insight as what does AI or what can it look like inside the schools? And that's what I'd love to hear and have this shared on. I have you share on this show just a little bit about about that in particular, artificial intelligence in the schools.
Trevor Goertzen (12:28.334)
Well, it's one of those things that I was not a fan of AI. Even when I first heard about School AI, which is the opportunity I serve now with School AI, at the time, I was working for an eSports company. And that's actually what led me out of education originally was the opportunity to work for a company called Generation eSports. I'd never planned on leaving, but was in DC at an awards event and was approached to come join an eSports team.
and help schools grow their e-sports programs. I was like, I don't even like video games, but I see the value in having a team for every kid. And so that's part of what led me to step out of administration. was getting ready to open a brand new middle school, was gonna be the KPA president the next year. Things were going good, but I think it was time for a change. I think we all have that time in our life where like, I think I just wanna do something different for a little bit. Midpoint in my career, let's mix it up.
But fast forward a little over a year ago, I met the founder of School AI at an event. And at the time I was very much opposed to AI. All I could see was the downsides. I didn't see any benefit in it. All I saw was it wiping out critical thinking skills, wiping out independent work.
wiping out anything that forced someone to kind of challenge themselves. And I kind of viewed it as the ultimate easy button for students, for staff, for a lot of people. But what I come to find out, specifically with School AI and others, is AI becomes a tool for the purpose you have. And we say frequently at School AI, AI is not the thing, it's the thing that gets you to the thing.
So when you look at it as a tool to help you as an educator, maybe it's expand your skills, to reach individual students that you could never reach before, to give a voice to the voiceless child, that's what made me go, there's something really, really special here. And I remember the founder of Schooly I talked about giving his own son a personalized chat bot to help him with his classwork. And that really struck me as a...
Trevor Goertzen (14:37.002)
man, we all have those students. We all have those students that struggle to work, struggle to keep up, and the reality is there's just not enough time in the day or enough staff in the day to keep up with that. As much as we try, it's just not there. But AI can come alongside and do that. And so when I thought about all the scary things at doing the work, and I started to go, wait a minute, there's some really innovative...
personal special ways that the right AI resource can support what a teacher is doing to enhance what a teacher is doing, to give a voice to students who had no voice before. It really changed my mind to what AI is all about. And since then, I'm a total convert. I'm a total convert. I use AI in so many different aspects of my personal life, professional life.
whether it is building and developing like personal fitness plans for myself, whether it is using it to, I used it the other night, I was teaching a Bible class out of my church and I used it to help me build my lessons because it gave me depth of learning that I wouldn't have been able to find otherwise. And so what AI allows you to do is gain knowledge base that is already out there.
but you're gaining it faster and more efficiently and at the pace and rate in which you want. So when you think about individual students, see you have a kid who's sitting in a sixth grade math classroom that is just lost and behind. No matter how much that teacher wants to get back there, there's 30 other kids they have to meet with.
but you give that kid their own personal chat bot, a school AI space, and now they have their own individual tutor, their own individual assistant, but the teacher's the one that drives that experience, man, I want every kid to have that. I want every kid to have their own support.
Rick Sola (16:26.396)
So kind of paint that picture. So I'm trying to picture a classroom. I'm former social studies teacher myself. And you're working with the other 30 students. And you've got one or two that they're getting some help. They need your help. You need to kind peel away and address other parts of the classroom, other students. You talk about a personal assistant. Paint that picture for us. What is that literally going to look like in the classroom?
Trevor Goertzen (16:51.65)
Yep. Yep, yep. So, and I'll be very specific with School AI just to be really candid. There's other resources out there than just ours. But what I love about School AI is School AI uses the same engines or same large language models that you would personally use if you went to Claude, Co-Pilot, OpenAI, or ChatGPT. But those engines have filters and parameters built into to make it more educationally sound and educationally appropriate.
So whatever information you put in it is not used to train it. And also when that information comes back to the user, it's more educationally minded, it's filtered for inaccuracy, it ensures that it's not going to say anything inappropriate, whether it's racial or sexual or gambling or alcohol, it doesn't allow that to take place. So you give in a student a chat bot that uses OpenAI Anthropic Cloud.
But you as a teacher design it. So if a young first year Mr. Rick Soul is in his classroom and he has kids on the high and the low end, you could quickly go to School AI and create a space and you could call it Little Billy's Helper. And you could literally say, support Billy in his class work, do not give answers, only provide feedback.
you can what we call launch, which is share. So think like a cahoots. You share a link, you share QR code, you share through Google Classroom, and you tell Billy, hey, jump on, your assistant is ready to help you. So when that student joins that space or their thought partner, their chat bot, it begins a series of Socratic style conversations with the student. It might say, hey Billy, what can I help you with today? Billy says, I don't get it.
the ARO respond back, what don't you get? I don't get class. And then it will say something of what about class do you not understand? I don't understand immigration.
Trevor Goertzen (18:50.826)
Okay, so now as AI is listening to what Billy's saying, it's adapting, it's making suggestions, and it's providing help and support to clarify for that individual student. Now, on the other end of the spectrum, if you have a student that is highly advanced and so far ahead of the classroom, you build them a space, you launch it to them, and now they're going further and deeper than anyone in the class is because now they're gonna go at the pace that they want to go.
But the beautiful thing about School AI is for Mr. First-year teacher Rick Sola, he can then see everything those students are saying and doing within that chat space.
So he can go back and see, what is Billy asking about? What gaps does Billy have that I can go back and support? So again, it's not replacing what Rick is doing as a teacher. It's only giving him more insights that he had before. So you're supporting your student, but you're also giving the teacher insight to then provide additional resources, excuse me, learning for that individual student.
Rick Sola (19:54.898)
So as you work, because I know you work with schools really all across the country now, what are, and I'm sure you encounter some different pushback or concerns or fears even, what's the most common thing that you hear that's really kind of the thanks but no thanks mentality? What is shared from the school perspective?
Trevor Goertzen (19:59.533)
Yep.
Trevor Goertzen (20:18.764)
Yeah, it used to be data privacy or data concerns.
That has kind of gone away as people understand more about what is actually going on with student data. So that PII is a common one and that's kind of one of the important things about going with someone like School.ai is that we do have the ability to secure the data. It's not going out and used by the AI companies, which when you use OpenAI it is, but you have that security piece. The other thing that people are always concerned about is it's just gonna make kids dumber. They'll even tell me that it's gonna make them dumber. They're not gonna have to think for themselves.
because it's going to do it for them. And that's a total misunderstanding of what AI is designed to do. Now, could it do that? 100%. You could design, you could give a kid access to chat GPT and it could write every term paper that kid ever needs. It can do that. But that's not what something like a school AI is designed to do. A school AI is designed to be a thought partner for that student and keep them within the parameters and boundaries that the teacher designed.
And so once somebody sees that, it's like, now I see that it's like a bowling alley. When you lift those bumpers, the kid has to stay within the lane of those bumpers. So once somebody sees that and they understand it, then it's like the blinders fall off and they're like, okay.
Now I get why this would be beneficial. And once you kind of get past those data privacy fears and the kids are just gonna cheat fears, now it's like, let's go. Now there's some things we can do to help kids out.
Rick Sola (21:53.532)
So is it accurate to say this is, like you've created an ecosystem? Is that the right word or is it, how would you describe it?
Trevor Goertzen (22:02.25)
Yeah, I like that word and I'll even use that word specifically with like school AI as we've created an academic ecosphere because not only do you use it for like individual student support, student tutoring, you may, and you also can use it for like we have schools that's within our chatbots or spaces. You can upload or download.
your HR handbooks, your training manuals, your student handbooks, and then you can use and create a chat bot that helps people get any question answered that is within those handbooks. So if you have a new student to campus who knows nothing about Chisholm Trail,
and you give them access to that school AI space, any question they have about school is gonna reference back to the handbook that is there. Now, would they have flipped through that handbook? Probably not. But might they ask the chat body question? Yeah, that's something that's a little more easy to do. So you have the ability to have a more broad scope support system.
Rick Sola (23:02.002)
And so
Rick Sola (23:07.186)
So I'm going to make sure I understand and maybe for listeners, I have the school handbook, the 550 page or whatever it is, school handbook. It's big one. Yeah, it's very thorough. No, but that gets uploaded through School AI. It's in the system. And I create the space. Parents can get to it, whether linked through a website or shared or whatever the case. And they go in there and like, oh, what
Trevor Goertzen (23:17.048)
Big one.
Yeah.
Rick Sola (23:36.954)
Yeah, what's the lunch policy? Are they allowed to go into the snack line or whatever and they just type it in and it just responds like ask Jeeves back in the day? Is that kind of the deal or?
Trevor Goertzen (23:47.694)
I haven't heard somebody describe it like that, but 100 % Rick, that's exactly what it's going to do. Yes. No, that's exactly it. It's just going to reference to the information provided.
Rick Sola (23:49.65)
That's how far back I go, Trevor.
Trevor Goertzen (23:58.656)
And so that's kind of the beautiful thing is you can give it its data source to ensure that it's being accurate and it's being consistent with what you want it to do. Now, 550 pages might be too big for the platform to hold, but like where we're headed as a like school AI is the ability for its school district. So Olathe Public Schools, Spring Hill Schools, Cinnamon Valley, Cinnamon Valley, Simran Valley Schools, like you could upload and have given access to all of your
Rick Sola (24:13.586)
Fork.
Trevor Goertzen (24:28.12)
district-wide information, training manuals, handbooks, guide, Board of Education, curriculum resources, and then everything a teacher builds or all the spaces they build reference back to those materials and items. So then you ensure that everything is designing are based upon the district priorities and district guidelines.
That's where things are going with it. Even the ability to give individual students, I'm go back to little Rick Sola in second grade who starts using a space that starts to learn how he thinks and how he operates and starts providing you assistance based upon the areas that you struggle. Not doing it for you, but providing assistance and support.
when you start to go, man, this gets it gets bigger and bigger on what it's going to do. And then you start thinking out of these equity conversations about every kid needs access and there's no barriers. It doesn't matter where you live, you have access to those resources.
Rick Sola (25:30.576)
So for the record, our handbook is not 550 pages. Just for the record, for the, you know, I don't need any added judgment out there, but, but no, you know, one thing that we had talked about before, and you actually had demoed this for me and just incredible. And I think about the, just the diverse languages that we have all across our state. And you talk about the handbook, a family that's new, it's January, we're all coming back from break.
Trevor Goertzen (25:33.824)
Okay, I was wondering.
Rick Sola (25:59.602)
I know our building's got a few new students from different parts of the state, different parts of the country, and in some cases, different parts of the world, but English not being a native language. That demo that you showed as far as how quickly and easily the language translation occurs, is that something, can you describe that in the classroom, real-time use of interpretation?
Trevor Goertzen (26:22.284)
Yeah, Yep, yep.
So I met a student, his name is Suleyman. Now Suleyman was a sixth grade student in Jordan, Utah, which is a suburb of Salt Lake City. Suleyman is a refugee student. He came to the US earlier this, well, this was December of last year. So he came in early fall of 2023, I think it would have been. He's staying with a host family, so he's not even with his own family. He speaks very, very little English.
When he came to the middle school, his principal, Eric Price, built for him a schooly-eye space. And it spoke English and Dari at the same time. Dari was his Afghan, the language he spoke in Afghanistan. No one else on the school campus spoke Dari. The boy also loved Lionel Messi in the Premier League. So the principal within the prompt said, Suleiman loves the Premier League, loves Lionel Messi.
And so what Suleiman would use the space for is when he's sitting in class, he would ask questions. And oftentimes the questions were more questions not about his ability, but about a language issue. So he shared one example of you're sitting in math class and the teacher was talking about slope.
Suleiman, he showed me the chat so I could see it. He showed me the chat, he had asked, what is slope? Now he is asking it in Dari. It's responding both in Dari and English to help him learn English, but in the response it referenced a mountain range in Afghanistan.
Trevor Goertzen (27:57.646)
And so for him, not only did it give him the answer, but it gave him a visualization that only AI could provide referencing a mountain range that he knew in Afghanistan. So when you think about like...
Like very, it's complex but simple version is, you take that kid who's non-English speaking or limited English proficiency, and now you're giving them their own personal tutor that can operate in their native language and in the language you're trying to help them learn in the United States. So for them, it becomes their own personal assistant guide.
And for a kid who felt lost and didn't have anyone to ask, there's no one else that knew Dari in that school, but his AI chatbot did. So that's where you'd go for help.
Rick Sola (28:39.826)
You hit on something there that's really just an important piece, which is that language versus ability. And how many times are we working with students who may not have the strength and the language that's being taught. And so it's being interpreted as some form of learning disability.
Trevor Goertzen (28:49.251)
Yeah.
Trevor Goertzen (28:59.426)
Yeah. They don't need special ed services. just, yeah. Yes. man.
Rick Sola (29:03.654)
Yeah, yeah, no, that's, you know, I go back to, and I just outed myself a little bit ago about how far back I go when I referenced Ask Jeeves, but I do remember when Google came onto the scene, and I was an early, early social studies teacher, and it was a district professional development day. I'm in a room with a bunch of all levels of social studies teachers, and we're having this debate on Google and whether it should be used.
Trevor Goertzen (29:14.124)
Yeah, yeah.
Yeah.
Rick Sola (29:32.026)
in the classroom or not. And you had two camps. had those who kind of like what you're saying about AI. It's going to make kids dumber. They're not going to cheat. It's not going to help them grow. And then on the other side was Google's here to stay. And we can teach them how to use it and use some discernment as they look up information. Not everything's going to be applicable.
It kind of reminds me of where we're at a little bit with AI. I don't see AI going anywhere. I definitely have appreciated recently, most recently on Amazon, I have the AI generated feedback of kind of all the ratings that just kind of summarize in a nice little form. I don't see AI going away, but I do think it's important that you had used the phrase before AI literacy. I think we need to think about AI literacy and AI.
AI responsibility and how that's going to look in our schools and probably something that we need to start being really proactive about teaching our kids about kind of the good AI and the maybe the bad AI or how to discern AI. What are your
Trevor Goertzen (30:41.294)
Yeah.
Yeah, totally. Well, and again, it comes back to what world are we trying to set our kids up for? Are we setting them up for the ability to be independent thinkers, have wisdom and discernment? In the same way that we're having those debates with the Google versus a kid reading something or going to an encyclopedia, we've continued to evolve and change how knowledge is accessed. And so the ability to teach someone to critically think and go,
real I think I shared the example this morning I saw a video yesterday of a cat making spaghetti and it was the most perfect video of a cat dicing carrots and browning hamburger and making noodles and I mean by golly if you didn't know any better you would really think that cat was making him 100 % AI generated
you still have to have the ability to look at something, hear something, read something, go, I need to confirm that this is correct and accurate. But on the same note, how do you do that? Because there might be situations that you need to be able to use and create and build content, develop resources that utilize those different AI platforms. So to just assume a kid will figure it out later, eventually.
eventually, but how many students can we look at that have a leg up because they learned to read a little bit earlier in life? They're exposed to resources earlier in life. What does that do for them down the road? We know its significance. I believe it's gonna have a similar impact with AI.
Rick Sola (32:13.35)
Yeah, it's not just about the learning the content, but in that situation you shared with the multiple languages at once, it's teaching a student how to read and write English along with their native language. so, yeah, just really incredible. as I sit here, I'm a principal of a middle school building and other principals listening. What do I as a principal need to know about AI right now?
Trevor Goertzen (32:28.13)
Yeah. Yeah.
Trevor Goertzen (32:41.548)
Yeah, so what I'm gonna tell you is I wouldn't be surprised if half your students were already using on their cell phones every day. Is that they're on chat GPT. I have a niece that's in a local school district, she's a sophomore. Her school district does not believe in AI, so she pays for her own chat GPT Turbo subscription. She uses it her phone throughout the day. Now, she's using her resources because she knows it's helping her be a better student.
had a school provided her with that, she would have the same power, both in a more constructive, guided environment. So the first thing I tell you is more than likely, students are using it. They're already accessing it on a variety of devices in a variety of ways. And the second thing I'd kind of lean to is the idea that to save your staff a lot of time and effort and give your staff back the day-to-day work that they were doing before that is remedial stuff, there's a lot that AI can
do to support individual teacher time. So whether it's lesson planning, emails, content creation, idea generation, AI can accelerate that and allow the teachers to work more directly with kids to meet those SEL needs at a deeper level. So the thing I tell principal is it's there. If you think it's not, it is. If your district's afraid of it, take a step back.
Really investigate what it's doing verse what maybe you're hearing on social media or you're hearing on select news channels that are telling you What is incorrectly actually happening with AI? And I also encourage you to be brave be brave and try Take little small groups of teachers try things out use different resources out there Open eyes great. Just go to Chad GPT use perplexity You don't have to pay for a subscription service to have great resources. There's a lot of good options out there for you
Rick Sola (34:33.254)
So in a quick rapid fire, two or three things, what could AI do to make my day easier so I can be out mixing in with kids and building those relationships? Because one thing we haven't touched on, but I know your view on this, which is AI is not here to replace a relationship. Just because you have a digital tutor with you, that's not replacing the teacher relationship, which is also so valuable.
Trevor Goertzen (34:37.614)
Yep.
Rick Sola (35:03.162)
If I want to really maintain that, what would be something, two or three things that you could say, hey, right now you could have AI help you with this and you're freed up to do some other things?
Trevor Goertzen (35:12.654)
Yeah.
I would say first and foremost kind of long-term planning and I think that's a big one as far as when you're looking at and not having to spend as much time on long-term planning within a less environment. Second thing being emails and responding back to emails. One of the things I love to do is have it read through and summarize emails for me. I think that's been a real benefit for me. And then even one of the things that you can do is it expedites your thoughts and gives you quicker responses
when you're working through problems and situations. So you have a challenging student, a challenging staff member, an environment you're not quite sure what to do with, ask AI, ask co-teacher, ask chat GPT, how do I handle this situation? And you'll quickly find that it gives you responses and allows you to move quicker because you have more access to information. So whether it's a, I don't know what to do with this particular student.
throw it out there to OpenAI and see what ideas it gives you. That's probably one of the quickest things that I've done for time saving is it allows me to get through content faster. The last thing I'll throw out too is summarizing large amounts of information. So if I have a document to read, if I have a district policy to go through, if I have news, something from state level or even a piece of literature I want.
put that in one of the AI prompts and ask it to summarize it for you, boom, you're gonna have like three quick summarization points of what you were just supposed to read and allows you to get, move through things quicker and faster and more efficiently.
Rick Sola (36:44.754)
Yeah, I imagine too with some of the maybe quick turnaround of certain emails, it could be a really good starting point. You know, I always feel like whether it's a communication I've been asked to send, I always like to kind of read through it. I want my voice there, that sort of thing. Do you have any guidance for just general discernment when it comes to, I guess how accurate is the information? Do we rely on, 100 % it's accurate or hey,
Kind of like Google back in the day, it's really good, it might not be, you know, got to use some discernment on that and make sure you're sharing good information.
Trevor Goertzen (37:25.07)
So here's my first thought, hopefully it's not counter- say, don't outsource your brand AI. One of the things that I have already found is there's an easy button there if you want to use it. I could have it respond to every email, but I don't think that's the right thing to do. I don't think that's the best thing to do. There's a lot of things that you're going to start seeing people do, even when it comes to AI avatars that do trainings for you.
There's gonna be a temptation, Rick, for you guys as a staff, as an administrative team, to have AI create and do your trainings for you. Do your PDs for you. There might be a perk and benefit to that because it saves you time from having to get in front and do some of those trainings. But you lose that personal connection piece. You could have it do your, call it the Russell Flat, the Jason Flat Act. You could have it do those trainings for you.
but you miss out on some of those personalization conversations you have when you go through that training together. So one thing I encourage people is don't outsource your brain to AI and ensure that you're still the one that's driving what it's doing and how it's operating. And don't be afraid to hit pause on it and be like, eh, I don't think that's correct. That doesn't sound right to me.
Rick Sola (38:39.346)
Yeah, I think that's where, you know, judgment is so critical. We're in the people business. have, you know, there's so much that comes our way and it could be easy to turn on that, like you said, that easy button. But at the end of the day, it's the relationships, it's the connections, and that's what we all thrive on. And that's honestly, that's what we are promoting as.
part of our schools is those connections. And so, I'll give a quick example, and I think I shared this to you before, but last year I had an opening for a position and I received a really nice little cover letter, email, and I read it and it was without a doubt AI generated. It was very machine sounding and impersonal and more than anything, it was just using language that didn't fit.
the building I'm in or anything and you know that's that was such a glaring example of you know don't just turn on the easy button it's like not hitting spell check at the end of a document you know it's maybe a great place to start but you got to make it your own and not turn it over to the machines if you will.
Trevor Goertzen (39:34.978)
Yeah.
Trevor Goertzen (39:52.286)
Yeah, I had someone say, we'll know it's authentic when there's spelling and grammar errors. Now you're gonna try to have some spelling and grammar errors because A, I won't let that happen unless you tell it to. You could tell your prompt to make this sound like it was written by a third grader.
Rick Sola (39:58.534)
Yeah.
Trevor Goertzen (40:09.43)
and it's going to, and that's what kids will do when they turn things in, so it's not looking like it's AI data, or so it beats the AI detectors. The last thing I will say is AI detections, don't spend your money on it. There's a lot of districts that don't wanna spend a lot of money on AI detection systems, they just don't work. And that's not because I work for an AI company, that's because they're consistently shown to be inconsistent, and if anything, they're shown to be...
very discriminatory towards non-English speakers because the pace in which a non-English speaker will type or write oftentimes triggers those AI detection systems. So whether it's a turn it in or something similar to that, the consistency of those working is not good. I actually don't even, the university that I work for uses it. I ignore it completely because I believe it's so inconsistent in how it operates.
Rick Sola (41:03.216)
Yeah, interesting. No, I had not heard that, but that's that is interesting because I think that is.
Trevor Goertzen (41:07.054)
Yeah, just dig into the research on AI detection software. That's what I'd encourage people to do, is dig into it before you invest in it.
Rick Sola (41:12.113)
Yeah.
So I mean, I could go on and we could talk forever about AI. super, it's just really, I think of it as a new frontier, but as you project as much as you can, five to 10 years from now, what do you think AI is gonna look like in the mainstream classroom?
Trevor Goertzen (41:31.34)
Yeah, I, man, I think what you're gonna see is you're gonna see a big divide in schools that adopt and schools that don't. And you're gonna see some even bigger discrepancies in student success because of that. Not to say that schools that use AI will be better off. I don't mean it in that way.
But because, I think one of the greatest struggles we have right now in education is staffing. Like we just don't have the staff to take care of the needs we have. And schools that utilize AI to fill those gaps, I think are gonna be better off. Now, if you're a school that can already take care of staffing and it's not an issue, I think you'll be just fine. But schools that can't handle that staffing gaps that utilize AI, I think you're gonna be able make sure those students are moving forward appropriately. I also think you're gonna see every student have their own
Tutor that every that Rick Sola and my own three kids that they're gonna have their own tutor that essentially works with them and follows them everywhere they go that it's embedded within their own just like they have their own logins for emails and for whatever they're gonna have their own assistance and they're gonna give it a name and they're gonna have Chad I go to Chad for help and assistance. I really believe that is what's gonna be kind of the next big wave for us
Rick Sola (42:50.94)
That's interesting. And I think about iPads when those came on the scene and it's a personal device, an iDevice, and you customize it to yourself. And it's not a far reach to think that we will have those assistants that we customize to ourselves or whatever, or in the classroom. So like I said, I could go on and ask all sorts of questions. Trevor, where are we going to see you next? Are you going to be at any of our conferences around or?
Trevor Goertzen (42:54.295)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Trevor Goertzen (43:16.718)
You know, I was at KPA, oh it was a couple months ago, had the opportunity to be there. Hope to be at USA here in a few weeks. Always happy to come out and visit individual school districts in Kansas. Man, I'll be out in Holton next week, Topeka, just in Olathe. I was in Lewisburg a weeks ago, I'm sorry, Lewisburg, I in Peo'ola a couple weeks ago. If you're out there, I'd love to come out and help support, come out do some PD with you guys.
just help support the growth of appropriate and responsible AI use.
Rick Sola (43:49.318)
Yeah, Trevor, I'll put your contact information in the show notes here if people have questions, want to reach out and so forth. I really appreciate your time today. Before we go, a lot of times I like to end the show by, you know, kind of a shout out, celebrate of our people. You were connected for six years with KPA and you're in the education world for so long. Any people out there you want to shout out or?
Trevor Goertzen (44:16.724)
man, there's some good ones. And actually I'm gonna start with, he's not with us anymore, but Dwayne Dorshot. Dwayne was the executive director of KPA and he passed away unexpectedly. Man, it's probably almost been four years ago now, but he was a great friend and mentor along with Britton Hart and currently Carrie Leedy. But really a couple principles that have still been great friends.
People like Jackie Feist out in Dodge, just an incredible educator. Kristen Kraft there in the Andover area. Just folks that have always, whether it was principalship, whether it just personally, have always been great friends. Kelly Whitaker down in Ottawa has been such a great friend and resource. Brad Wilson and Rod Sprague. So lot of good folks that I have great fond memories of. Even good old Ron Berry. Man, he's a superintendent now, but we came in together and now he's a superintendent.
Same with mantle Greg Lear, he's a superintendent now too. So all these dudes, Nick Olson or Owens, these dudes that started out as principals and now they're superintendents. Just think very highly of lot of these men and women.
Rick Sola (45:24.528)
Well, thank you for your contribution. like I started the top of this podcast with for your contribution to this podcast here, not just today, but in its beginning, if you will, back over the summer. you've been been a big help, but I really appreciate your time and you sharing this information. This is really good stuff. Super interesting, fascinating. We'll definitely look for you here in the upcoming conferences and stay warm.
Safe out there.
Trevor Goertzen (45:56.44)
Thank you Rick, appreciate it.
Rick Sola (45:57.586)
Alright, take care.
32 эпизодов
Manage episode 464025116 series 3589047
In Cool Coffee 31, Mr. Trevor Goertzen, former KPA communications director, catches us up on his most recent endeavor, that of AI in the schools. Now with SchoolAI, Trevor talks about how this new frontier for schools can, and is already, changing things in the classroom and schools...for the better! For those wondering about AI, Trevor peels back some of the possibilities and issues in this Cool Coffee w/ Kansas Principals.
Connect with Trevor Goertzen:
- X: @Goertzen_edu
- Connect thru email at trevor@schoolai.com
(full transcript and chapters of the episode below)
We want to hear from you--take 2 minutes (or less) and click HERE to contribute!
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Leave show suggestions, guest recommendations, questions HERE!
Connect with us on...
Follow us on X: @KSPrincipals; @KPACoolCoffee
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Contact the host: @MrRickSola, rfsola@olatheschools.org, or KPACoolCoffee@gmail.com
The mission of the Kansas Principals Association, an organization committed to educational excellence and the lifelong success of all students, is to develop and support all principals through optimized learning, collaborative leadership, networking, and service.
Read more about the KPA HERE.
AI Generated Chapters (do not account for intro--time is 30 seconds off)
00:00Introduction to Cool Coffee and AI in Education
03:01Trevor Goertzen's Journey in Education
06:01The Evolution of the Kansas Principals Association Podcast
08:55The Role of AI in Education
11:57Transforming Education with AI Tools
15:01AI as a Personalized Learning Assistant
18:11Addressing Concerns About AI in Schools
20:54Creating an Academic Ecosystem with AI
23:50The Future of AI in Education
25:59Language Accessibility and AI
29:58AI Literacy and Responsibility
31:59AI's Role in School Administration
35:03Practical AI Applications for Educators
39:04The Human Element in AI
41:03The Future Landscape of AI in Classrooms
AI Generated Transcript
Rick Sola (00:01.734)
Hello and welcome to another edition of Cool Coffee. I have here with me today a very familiar voice, the original voice of the KPA podcast when it was Kansas principals. Listen up. It's Mr. Trevor Gertson from School AI. Hello, Trevor.
Trevor Goertzen (00:20.82)
for a while Rick. Excited to be here and appreciate the opportunity to share with Kansas administrators and a little bit about the history of the Listen Up podcast and now Cool Coffee by Rick Sola. So love it man, appreciate the opportunity.
Rick Sola (00:33.202)
Yeah. No, it's awesome. And I guess before we get started, I will just give you a quick shout out. So you did your podcast and I've listened to several of those and we talked and you were more than willing to receive my outreach and talk through with me how you did your podcast and so much of how this got started. I credit to you. So I really appreciate it. It's been a lot of fun and
Now it's just, awesome to have you here on the show talking about your, your new endeavor with, with artificial intelligence and school AI.
Trevor Goertzen (01:10.97)
You're gonna scare some people off talking about AI too much here, Rick, but yeah, it's been quite a journey. If you had asked me, man, three years ago, if I would be in my home office talking about AI, I would have never believed it. I had always anticipated being a principal and then an HR director and a superintendent.
That is what I assumed my career path would be when I had the honor of serving as a teacher and principal. The good Lord had different plans though and I'm thrilled to have the opportunity to continue working with teachers, continue working with students through the capacity that I do now at School AI. It's been a challenge to get out of directly being within the school system. There's definitely some things you get used to when you spend the majority of your career within kind of the day to day.
ebb and flow of public education, then you step out of that into startup culture, it is a drastic shift. And it's a change that I'm still getting used to as I answer my third year of being out, and no longer specifically. I still teach, I still teach for a university in Arkansas, so I'm an adjunct professor, I teach education law.
and I teach educational technology. So that'll be about my seventh, eighth year of doing that. So I still like to say I'm an active educator. At the collegiate level, I teach graduate school, and so that keeps me as engaged and possible. And every once in while, I think about coming back and subbing, just for the fun of it, just to get back in the school building and subsum. But I'm not sure about that. I don't know, Rick, if you ever need any subs, so.
Rick Sola (02:48.4)
Well, we do need subs actually and we'll take dibs on you here actually. Subs can be a short supply especially as we get into some of these, I don't know, some of these colder months or even the warmer months or Fridays or Tuesdays or you know, whatever. Yeah.
Trevor Goertzen (02:54.454)
You
Trevor Goertzen (03:01.976)
Yes.
Any day. Red Friday, red Monday, you pick it, you pick it.
Rick Sola (03:10.266)
Yeah, yeah, as we record this, it's January 3rd and we're like on the cusp of snowmageddon as it's getting talked about a couple days away from, I don't know, up to 15 inches or so. So who knows, who knows? But you mentioned kind of being out of the school for the last three years. One thing I like to do on the show is have guests share about their road to the chair that they're currently in.
Trevor Goertzen (03:16.298)
Snowmageddon.
Trevor Goertzen (03:24.696)
We'll see.
Rick Sola (03:37.732)
you've gone through the principal chair, but kind of going all the way back to your beginnings in education to what led you here today.
Trevor Goertzen (03:46.99)
Yeah, so it started in 2000, man, 2001, even in college. I went to Hardin University in Arkansas and even then I was starting to fill in in schools and help out. I knew I wanted to be a teacher from a very early age and so that was the path I wanted. So we even started doing a little bit of subbing while I was in college but I got my first job at Prairie Star Middle School, Blue Valley Schools in 2006.
I spent nine years in the classroom as a social studies English language arts teacher, coached football, wrestling, track and field, driver's ed instructor, summer camp counselor. I was an 1860s reenactor at a Haffey stage coach and I was a blacksmith for a couple summers. Like you do a little bit of everything when you're a teacher just to make extra cash and stay busy. One of the highlights though is I got my national board certification.
Rick Sola (04:33.142)
awesome.
Trevor Goertzen (04:41.546)
in my eighth year of teaching. And so I went through the national board process. That was an incredible process. Still, I think one of the most beneficial things an educator can do is go through the national board process as a teacher. From there, I went and worked at district office in Blue Valley for a year. was essentially what you might call like an instructional coach. We were called the educational support team at the time.
name changes every couple of years, but I was a mentor for first year teachers as well as national board candidates. Spent a year doing that, absolutely loved it. As you know, when you kind of change levels, you change perspectives. And when I had that position,
with the district and Blue Valley had 30,000 students, 30 some schools. I went from knowing about what was going on in one middle school to now I'm looking at nine middle schools, five high schools, 30 elementaries and it changes your perspective on how education works and how it operates. And that was a really pivotal year for me when I worked in district office, but it also made me realize I want to give back to kids. And so that following year, an opportunity at Spring Hill came up and I headed to Spring Hill.
and I spent six years as the principal assistant and then principal in Spring Hill Middle School. That was pre-COVID, during COVID and post-COVID. So I still vividly remember Friday the 13th. Friday the 13th, Black Friday of that year. I just hired the best teacher ever and I was so excited because we were like, can we bring her in for an interview? This is Friday the 13th. We're like, we're doing it. We know there's something out there, but she's coming in. Still one of the best teachers I've ever hired in the Mississippi.
Rick Sola (06:00.658)
The best of all worlds.
Trevor Goertzen (06:20.718)
But yeah, that was a real turning point in lot of ways. It was those years of COVID. It really kind of made you kind of pause, think back and reflect. Had an incredible staff in those six years in Spring Hill. It was a 6'8 building, great team. Front office staff, the assistants that I worked with, the coaches, administration. Really, really enjoyed it. But one of the things I loved the most about my time as a principal was the Kansas Principals Association.
And at the time, it was actually broken up into elementary and secondary. And so we had two, essentially two different organizations that operated, your elementary principal association and your secondary principals association. And so about midway through, we merged those together into the Kansas principals association. And that was an incredible experience, both as a part of it. And then I don't even remember when, midway through,
I got to know the then director of it, it's a gentleman named Brett Church. He asked me if I had any interest in being the communication director. I was like, this sounds like fun. What does it do? He's like, I don't know, figure it out. And so somewhere along the way, I think I just heard myself and the other principal Rod Sprague, I just heard George Kuros talk. And one of the things that George Kuros had said was something to the extent of, if you're not telling your story, someone else will.
And that made me really realize that people don't know what's going on in a school. They don't know. They have all these assumptions about what's happening, but they really didn't know what was going on day to day. So the original dream was let's interview Kansas principals and let's have them tell their school story. Tell them the highs, the lows, the good, the bad that's going on and try to humanize administrators.
And so that's really where it started was Listen Up was designed to humanize Kansas principals, Kansas administrators, tell the stories that other people are not going to hear. And it was so, so cool. Just not only for me professionally, and I'm sure you've noticed this, Rick, like you learn more when you hear someone else share.
Trevor Goertzen (08:28.482)
But getting to hear what people are doing across the state, whether it was in small little Galena, Kansas, or a big district like Olathe, and I forget his name now, but at the time he was Olathe South High School Principal. Now he's somewhere there in the board office. Clint Alberts, he did an episode. I shared it with the superintendent at the time, and he then shared it out to the entire district, and shared it out in the parents and community.
Rick Sola (08:44.594)
Clint Albers.
Trevor Goertzen (08:55.95)
Email it gives a source of pride and that was what I would actually hear again again from superintendents Even from board members. It was there was a source of pride when the community could hear what was going on with their administrators and that was such a cool experience to know that we were we were a part of that at kpa is Share the stories learning together celebrating what each and every different school was a part of
So what started out as just kind of an idea because of a George Kouros session kind of blossomed into three years of a great experience sharing with principals across Kansas. And so glad you're able to carry it forward, Rick, and continue to keep bringing those voices out for administrators as well.
Rick Sola (09:42.054)
Well, it has been a lot of fun and that's one of the biggest values. And I've said this multiple times on this show, but just that the connections from across the state, hearing what's going on across the state and by my goal, if you will, is to share those really positive things that are happening all across the state and buildings all across the state with others in the same position. And just in my time with KPA and sitting down next to
principles in other communities in other parts of the state. there's just so much value in that you can't replace it. then, you know, of course, and you probably know this selfishly, just being the one to be able to converse with principles on this platform. You know, I'm I'm learning a ton. I'm taking notes as I'm having these conversations. And, you know, that's my hope is that someone's listening and being able to do the same thing and kind of scratch your head like, oh, that's a really good idea. I've done this for 20 years, but I haven't thought of it that way before.
And so let's give it a shot.
Trevor Goertzen (10:42.26)
from. could be itty bitty schools, huge schools. They all have great ideas and great things to share.
Rick Sola (10:47.632)
Yeah. So you are in a different world now. You're in an artificial world. No, artificial intelligence.
Trevor Goertzen (10:52.514)
Yeah.
Rick Sola (10:58.918)
But with my own staff and full transparency, guess to kind of make a long story short, back to USA, Kansas in the spring of 24, my administrative team, we went and one of my assistant principals attended an AI session. And we started talking about this throughout the course of the school year. we had, both of us ironically had connections to you and
reached out and so the full transparency is, is I asked you to come out and just kind of present a little bit on AI and I described it to my staff as the new frontier. And I don't know if that's totally accurate or Trevor if you would even agree with that, but I kind of just view it as it's, at least at our point, the way I feel anyway, it's very much, there's a lot of unknown, we're not really sure. We have some story, you talk about telling your story, some people will tell the AI story.
It can be pretty either bleaker or scary, or it could be something that's, you know, all something, something different altogether. But he came in, did a great job, super engaging, just to kind of bring some insight as what does AI or what can it look like inside the schools? And that's what I'd love to hear and have this shared on. I have you share on this show just a little bit about about that in particular, artificial intelligence in the schools.
Trevor Goertzen (12:28.334)
Well, it's one of those things that I was not a fan of AI. Even when I first heard about School AI, which is the opportunity I serve now with School AI, at the time, I was working for an eSports company. And that's actually what led me out of education originally was the opportunity to work for a company called Generation eSports. I'd never planned on leaving, but was in DC at an awards event and was approached to come join an eSports team.
and help schools grow their e-sports programs. I was like, I don't even like video games, but I see the value in having a team for every kid. And so that's part of what led me to step out of administration. was getting ready to open a brand new middle school, was gonna be the KPA president the next year. Things were going good, but I think it was time for a change. I think we all have that time in our life where like, I think I just wanna do something different for a little bit. Midpoint in my career, let's mix it up.
But fast forward a little over a year ago, I met the founder of School AI at an event. And at the time I was very much opposed to AI. All I could see was the downsides. I didn't see any benefit in it. All I saw was it wiping out critical thinking skills, wiping out independent work.
wiping out anything that forced someone to kind of challenge themselves. And I kind of viewed it as the ultimate easy button for students, for staff, for a lot of people. But what I come to find out, specifically with School AI and others, is AI becomes a tool for the purpose you have. And we say frequently at School AI, AI is not the thing, it's the thing that gets you to the thing.
So when you look at it as a tool to help you as an educator, maybe it's expand your skills, to reach individual students that you could never reach before, to give a voice to the voiceless child, that's what made me go, there's something really, really special here. And I remember the founder of Schooly I talked about giving his own son a personalized chat bot to help him with his classwork. And that really struck me as a...
Trevor Goertzen (14:37.002)
man, we all have those students. We all have those students that struggle to work, struggle to keep up, and the reality is there's just not enough time in the day or enough staff in the day to keep up with that. As much as we try, it's just not there. But AI can come alongside and do that. And so when I thought about all the scary things at doing the work, and I started to go, wait a minute, there's some really innovative...
personal special ways that the right AI resource can support what a teacher is doing to enhance what a teacher is doing, to give a voice to students who had no voice before. It really changed my mind to what AI is all about. And since then, I'm a total convert. I'm a total convert. I use AI in so many different aspects of my personal life, professional life.
whether it is building and developing like personal fitness plans for myself, whether it is using it to, I used it the other night, I was teaching a Bible class out of my church and I used it to help me build my lessons because it gave me depth of learning that I wouldn't have been able to find otherwise. And so what AI allows you to do is gain knowledge base that is already out there.
but you're gaining it faster and more efficiently and at the pace and rate in which you want. So when you think about individual students, see you have a kid who's sitting in a sixth grade math classroom that is just lost and behind. No matter how much that teacher wants to get back there, there's 30 other kids they have to meet with.
but you give that kid their own personal chat bot, a school AI space, and now they have their own individual tutor, their own individual assistant, but the teacher's the one that drives that experience, man, I want every kid to have that. I want every kid to have their own support.
Rick Sola (16:26.396)
So kind of paint that picture. So I'm trying to picture a classroom. I'm former social studies teacher myself. And you're working with the other 30 students. And you've got one or two that they're getting some help. They need your help. You need to kind peel away and address other parts of the classroom, other students. You talk about a personal assistant. Paint that picture for us. What is that literally going to look like in the classroom?
Trevor Goertzen (16:51.65)
Yep. Yep, yep. So, and I'll be very specific with School AI just to be really candid. There's other resources out there than just ours. But what I love about School AI is School AI uses the same engines or same large language models that you would personally use if you went to Claude, Co-Pilot, OpenAI, or ChatGPT. But those engines have filters and parameters built into to make it more educationally sound and educationally appropriate.
So whatever information you put in it is not used to train it. And also when that information comes back to the user, it's more educationally minded, it's filtered for inaccuracy, it ensures that it's not going to say anything inappropriate, whether it's racial or sexual or gambling or alcohol, it doesn't allow that to take place. So you give in a student a chat bot that uses OpenAI Anthropic Cloud.
But you as a teacher design it. So if a young first year Mr. Rick Soul is in his classroom and he has kids on the high and the low end, you could quickly go to School AI and create a space and you could call it Little Billy's Helper. And you could literally say, support Billy in his class work, do not give answers, only provide feedback.
you can what we call launch, which is share. So think like a cahoots. You share a link, you share QR code, you share through Google Classroom, and you tell Billy, hey, jump on, your assistant is ready to help you. So when that student joins that space or their thought partner, their chat bot, it begins a series of Socratic style conversations with the student. It might say, hey Billy, what can I help you with today? Billy says, I don't get it.
the ARO respond back, what don't you get? I don't get class. And then it will say something of what about class do you not understand? I don't understand immigration.
Trevor Goertzen (18:50.826)
Okay, so now as AI is listening to what Billy's saying, it's adapting, it's making suggestions, and it's providing help and support to clarify for that individual student. Now, on the other end of the spectrum, if you have a student that is highly advanced and so far ahead of the classroom, you build them a space, you launch it to them, and now they're going further and deeper than anyone in the class is because now they're gonna go at the pace that they want to go.
But the beautiful thing about School AI is for Mr. First-year teacher Rick Sola, he can then see everything those students are saying and doing within that chat space.
So he can go back and see, what is Billy asking about? What gaps does Billy have that I can go back and support? So again, it's not replacing what Rick is doing as a teacher. It's only giving him more insights that he had before. So you're supporting your student, but you're also giving the teacher insight to then provide additional resources, excuse me, learning for that individual student.
Rick Sola (19:54.898)
So as you work, because I know you work with schools really all across the country now, what are, and I'm sure you encounter some different pushback or concerns or fears even, what's the most common thing that you hear that's really kind of the thanks but no thanks mentality? What is shared from the school perspective?
Trevor Goertzen (19:59.533)
Yep.
Trevor Goertzen (20:18.764)
Yeah, it used to be data privacy or data concerns.
That has kind of gone away as people understand more about what is actually going on with student data. So that PII is a common one and that's kind of one of the important things about going with someone like School.ai is that we do have the ability to secure the data. It's not going out and used by the AI companies, which when you use OpenAI it is, but you have that security piece. The other thing that people are always concerned about is it's just gonna make kids dumber. They'll even tell me that it's gonna make them dumber. They're not gonna have to think for themselves.
because it's going to do it for them. And that's a total misunderstanding of what AI is designed to do. Now, could it do that? 100%. You could design, you could give a kid access to chat GPT and it could write every term paper that kid ever needs. It can do that. But that's not what something like a school AI is designed to do. A school AI is designed to be a thought partner for that student and keep them within the parameters and boundaries that the teacher designed.
And so once somebody sees that, it's like, now I see that it's like a bowling alley. When you lift those bumpers, the kid has to stay within the lane of those bumpers. So once somebody sees that and they understand it, then it's like the blinders fall off and they're like, okay.
Now I get why this would be beneficial. And once you kind of get past those data privacy fears and the kids are just gonna cheat fears, now it's like, let's go. Now there's some things we can do to help kids out.
Rick Sola (21:53.532)
So is it accurate to say this is, like you've created an ecosystem? Is that the right word or is it, how would you describe it?
Trevor Goertzen (22:02.25)
Yeah, I like that word and I'll even use that word specifically with like school AI as we've created an academic ecosphere because not only do you use it for like individual student support, student tutoring, you may, and you also can use it for like we have schools that's within our chatbots or spaces. You can upload or download.
your HR handbooks, your training manuals, your student handbooks, and then you can use and create a chat bot that helps people get any question answered that is within those handbooks. So if you have a new student to campus who knows nothing about Chisholm Trail,
and you give them access to that school AI space, any question they have about school is gonna reference back to the handbook that is there. Now, would they have flipped through that handbook? Probably not. But might they ask the chat body question? Yeah, that's something that's a little more easy to do. So you have the ability to have a more broad scope support system.
Rick Sola (23:02.002)
And so
Rick Sola (23:07.186)
So I'm going to make sure I understand and maybe for listeners, I have the school handbook, the 550 page or whatever it is, school handbook. It's big one. Yeah, it's very thorough. No, but that gets uploaded through School AI. It's in the system. And I create the space. Parents can get to it, whether linked through a website or shared or whatever the case. And they go in there and like, oh, what
Trevor Goertzen (23:17.048)
Big one.
Yeah.
Rick Sola (23:36.954)
Yeah, what's the lunch policy? Are they allowed to go into the snack line or whatever and they just type it in and it just responds like ask Jeeves back in the day? Is that kind of the deal or?
Trevor Goertzen (23:47.694)
I haven't heard somebody describe it like that, but 100 % Rick, that's exactly what it's going to do. Yes. No, that's exactly it. It's just going to reference to the information provided.
Rick Sola (23:49.65)
That's how far back I go, Trevor.
Trevor Goertzen (23:58.656)
And so that's kind of the beautiful thing is you can give it its data source to ensure that it's being accurate and it's being consistent with what you want it to do. Now, 550 pages might be too big for the platform to hold, but like where we're headed as a like school AI is the ability for its school district. So Olathe Public Schools, Spring Hill Schools, Cinnamon Valley, Cinnamon Valley, Simran Valley Schools, like you could upload and have given access to all of your
Rick Sola (24:13.586)
Fork.
Trevor Goertzen (24:28.12)
district-wide information, training manuals, handbooks, guide, Board of Education, curriculum resources, and then everything a teacher builds or all the spaces they build reference back to those materials and items. So then you ensure that everything is designing are based upon the district priorities and district guidelines.
That's where things are going with it. Even the ability to give individual students, I'm go back to little Rick Sola in second grade who starts using a space that starts to learn how he thinks and how he operates and starts providing you assistance based upon the areas that you struggle. Not doing it for you, but providing assistance and support.
when you start to go, man, this gets it gets bigger and bigger on what it's going to do. And then you start thinking out of these equity conversations about every kid needs access and there's no barriers. It doesn't matter where you live, you have access to those resources.
Rick Sola (25:30.576)
So for the record, our handbook is not 550 pages. Just for the record, for the, you know, I don't need any added judgment out there, but, but no, you know, one thing that we had talked about before, and you actually had demoed this for me and just incredible. And I think about the, just the diverse languages that we have all across our state. And you talk about the handbook, a family that's new, it's January, we're all coming back from break.
Trevor Goertzen (25:33.824)
Okay, I was wondering.
Rick Sola (25:59.602)
I know our building's got a few new students from different parts of the state, different parts of the country, and in some cases, different parts of the world, but English not being a native language. That demo that you showed as far as how quickly and easily the language translation occurs, is that something, can you describe that in the classroom, real-time use of interpretation?
Trevor Goertzen (26:22.284)
Yeah, Yep, yep.
So I met a student, his name is Suleyman. Now Suleyman was a sixth grade student in Jordan, Utah, which is a suburb of Salt Lake City. Suleyman is a refugee student. He came to the US earlier this, well, this was December of last year. So he came in early fall of 2023, I think it would have been. He's staying with a host family, so he's not even with his own family. He speaks very, very little English.
When he came to the middle school, his principal, Eric Price, built for him a schooly-eye space. And it spoke English and Dari at the same time. Dari was his Afghan, the language he spoke in Afghanistan. No one else on the school campus spoke Dari. The boy also loved Lionel Messi in the Premier League. So the principal within the prompt said, Suleiman loves the Premier League, loves Lionel Messi.
And so what Suleiman would use the space for is when he's sitting in class, he would ask questions. And oftentimes the questions were more questions not about his ability, but about a language issue. So he shared one example of you're sitting in math class and the teacher was talking about slope.
Suleiman, he showed me the chat so I could see it. He showed me the chat, he had asked, what is slope? Now he is asking it in Dari. It's responding both in Dari and English to help him learn English, but in the response it referenced a mountain range in Afghanistan.
Trevor Goertzen (27:57.646)
And so for him, not only did it give him the answer, but it gave him a visualization that only AI could provide referencing a mountain range that he knew in Afghanistan. So when you think about like...
Like very, it's complex but simple version is, you take that kid who's non-English speaking or limited English proficiency, and now you're giving them their own personal tutor that can operate in their native language and in the language you're trying to help them learn in the United States. So for them, it becomes their own personal assistant guide.
And for a kid who felt lost and didn't have anyone to ask, there's no one else that knew Dari in that school, but his AI chatbot did. So that's where you'd go for help.
Rick Sola (28:39.826)
You hit on something there that's really just an important piece, which is that language versus ability. And how many times are we working with students who may not have the strength and the language that's being taught. And so it's being interpreted as some form of learning disability.
Trevor Goertzen (28:49.251)
Yeah.
Trevor Goertzen (28:59.426)
Yeah. They don't need special ed services. just, yeah. Yes. man.
Rick Sola (29:03.654)
Yeah, yeah, no, that's, you know, I go back to, and I just outed myself a little bit ago about how far back I go when I referenced Ask Jeeves, but I do remember when Google came onto the scene, and I was an early, early social studies teacher, and it was a district professional development day. I'm in a room with a bunch of all levels of social studies teachers, and we're having this debate on Google and whether it should be used.
Trevor Goertzen (29:14.124)
Yeah, yeah.
Yeah.
Rick Sola (29:32.026)
in the classroom or not. And you had two camps. had those who kind of like what you're saying about AI. It's going to make kids dumber. They're not going to cheat. It's not going to help them grow. And then on the other side was Google's here to stay. And we can teach them how to use it and use some discernment as they look up information. Not everything's going to be applicable.
It kind of reminds me of where we're at a little bit with AI. I don't see AI going anywhere. I definitely have appreciated recently, most recently on Amazon, I have the AI generated feedback of kind of all the ratings that just kind of summarize in a nice little form. I don't see AI going away, but I do think it's important that you had used the phrase before AI literacy. I think we need to think about AI literacy and AI.
AI responsibility and how that's going to look in our schools and probably something that we need to start being really proactive about teaching our kids about kind of the good AI and the maybe the bad AI or how to discern AI. What are your
Trevor Goertzen (30:41.294)
Yeah.
Yeah, totally. Well, and again, it comes back to what world are we trying to set our kids up for? Are we setting them up for the ability to be independent thinkers, have wisdom and discernment? In the same way that we're having those debates with the Google versus a kid reading something or going to an encyclopedia, we've continued to evolve and change how knowledge is accessed. And so the ability to teach someone to critically think and go,
real I think I shared the example this morning I saw a video yesterday of a cat making spaghetti and it was the most perfect video of a cat dicing carrots and browning hamburger and making noodles and I mean by golly if you didn't know any better you would really think that cat was making him 100 % AI generated
you still have to have the ability to look at something, hear something, read something, go, I need to confirm that this is correct and accurate. But on the same note, how do you do that? Because there might be situations that you need to be able to use and create and build content, develop resources that utilize those different AI platforms. So to just assume a kid will figure it out later, eventually.
eventually, but how many students can we look at that have a leg up because they learned to read a little bit earlier in life? They're exposed to resources earlier in life. What does that do for them down the road? We know its significance. I believe it's gonna have a similar impact with AI.
Rick Sola (32:13.35)
Yeah, it's not just about the learning the content, but in that situation you shared with the multiple languages at once, it's teaching a student how to read and write English along with their native language. so, yeah, just really incredible. as I sit here, I'm a principal of a middle school building and other principals listening. What do I as a principal need to know about AI right now?
Trevor Goertzen (32:28.13)
Yeah. Yeah.
Trevor Goertzen (32:41.548)
Yeah, so what I'm gonna tell you is I wouldn't be surprised if half your students were already using on their cell phones every day. Is that they're on chat GPT. I have a niece that's in a local school district, she's a sophomore. Her school district does not believe in AI, so she pays for her own chat GPT Turbo subscription. She uses it her phone throughout the day. Now, she's using her resources because she knows it's helping her be a better student.
had a school provided her with that, she would have the same power, both in a more constructive, guided environment. So the first thing I tell you is more than likely, students are using it. They're already accessing it on a variety of devices in a variety of ways. And the second thing I'd kind of lean to is the idea that to save your staff a lot of time and effort and give your staff back the day-to-day work that they were doing before that is remedial stuff, there's a lot that AI can
do to support individual teacher time. So whether it's lesson planning, emails, content creation, idea generation, AI can accelerate that and allow the teachers to work more directly with kids to meet those SEL needs at a deeper level. So the thing I tell principal is it's there. If you think it's not, it is. If your district's afraid of it, take a step back.
Really investigate what it's doing verse what maybe you're hearing on social media or you're hearing on select news channels that are telling you What is incorrectly actually happening with AI? And I also encourage you to be brave be brave and try Take little small groups of teachers try things out use different resources out there Open eyes great. Just go to Chad GPT use perplexity You don't have to pay for a subscription service to have great resources. There's a lot of good options out there for you
Rick Sola (34:33.254)
So in a quick rapid fire, two or three things, what could AI do to make my day easier so I can be out mixing in with kids and building those relationships? Because one thing we haven't touched on, but I know your view on this, which is AI is not here to replace a relationship. Just because you have a digital tutor with you, that's not replacing the teacher relationship, which is also so valuable.
Trevor Goertzen (34:37.614)
Yep.
Rick Sola (35:03.162)
If I want to really maintain that, what would be something, two or three things that you could say, hey, right now you could have AI help you with this and you're freed up to do some other things?
Trevor Goertzen (35:12.654)
Yeah.
I would say first and foremost kind of long-term planning and I think that's a big one as far as when you're looking at and not having to spend as much time on long-term planning within a less environment. Second thing being emails and responding back to emails. One of the things I love to do is have it read through and summarize emails for me. I think that's been a real benefit for me. And then even one of the things that you can do is it expedites your thoughts and gives you quicker responses
when you're working through problems and situations. So you have a challenging student, a challenging staff member, an environment you're not quite sure what to do with, ask AI, ask co-teacher, ask chat GPT, how do I handle this situation? And you'll quickly find that it gives you responses and allows you to move quicker because you have more access to information. So whether it's a, I don't know what to do with this particular student.
throw it out there to OpenAI and see what ideas it gives you. That's probably one of the quickest things that I've done for time saving is it allows me to get through content faster. The last thing I'll throw out too is summarizing large amounts of information. So if I have a document to read, if I have a district policy to go through, if I have news, something from state level or even a piece of literature I want.
put that in one of the AI prompts and ask it to summarize it for you, boom, you're gonna have like three quick summarization points of what you were just supposed to read and allows you to get, move through things quicker and faster and more efficiently.
Rick Sola (36:44.754)
Yeah, I imagine too with some of the maybe quick turnaround of certain emails, it could be a really good starting point. You know, I always feel like whether it's a communication I've been asked to send, I always like to kind of read through it. I want my voice there, that sort of thing. Do you have any guidance for just general discernment when it comes to, I guess how accurate is the information? Do we rely on, 100 % it's accurate or hey,
Kind of like Google back in the day, it's really good, it might not be, you know, got to use some discernment on that and make sure you're sharing good information.
Trevor Goertzen (37:25.07)
So here's my first thought, hopefully it's not counter- say, don't outsource your brand AI. One of the things that I have already found is there's an easy button there if you want to use it. I could have it respond to every email, but I don't think that's the right thing to do. I don't think that's the best thing to do. There's a lot of things that you're going to start seeing people do, even when it comes to AI avatars that do trainings for you.
There's gonna be a temptation, Rick, for you guys as a staff, as an administrative team, to have AI create and do your trainings for you. Do your PDs for you. There might be a perk and benefit to that because it saves you time from having to get in front and do some of those trainings. But you lose that personal connection piece. You could have it do your, call it the Russell Flat, the Jason Flat Act. You could have it do those trainings for you.
but you miss out on some of those personalization conversations you have when you go through that training together. So one thing I encourage people is don't outsource your brain to AI and ensure that you're still the one that's driving what it's doing and how it's operating. And don't be afraid to hit pause on it and be like, eh, I don't think that's correct. That doesn't sound right to me.
Rick Sola (38:39.346)
Yeah, I think that's where, you know, judgment is so critical. We're in the people business. have, you know, there's so much that comes our way and it could be easy to turn on that, like you said, that easy button. But at the end of the day, it's the relationships, it's the connections, and that's what we all thrive on. And that's honestly, that's what we are promoting as.
part of our schools is those connections. And so, I'll give a quick example, and I think I shared this to you before, but last year I had an opening for a position and I received a really nice little cover letter, email, and I read it and it was without a doubt AI generated. It was very machine sounding and impersonal and more than anything, it was just using language that didn't fit.
the building I'm in or anything and you know that's that was such a glaring example of you know don't just turn on the easy button it's like not hitting spell check at the end of a document you know it's maybe a great place to start but you got to make it your own and not turn it over to the machines if you will.
Trevor Goertzen (39:34.978)
Yeah.
Trevor Goertzen (39:52.286)
Yeah, I had someone say, we'll know it's authentic when there's spelling and grammar errors. Now you're gonna try to have some spelling and grammar errors because A, I won't let that happen unless you tell it to. You could tell your prompt to make this sound like it was written by a third grader.
Rick Sola (39:58.534)
Yeah.
Trevor Goertzen (40:09.43)
and it's going to, and that's what kids will do when they turn things in, so it's not looking like it's AI data, or so it beats the AI detectors. The last thing I will say is AI detections, don't spend your money on it. There's a lot of districts that don't wanna spend a lot of money on AI detection systems, they just don't work. And that's not because I work for an AI company, that's because they're consistently shown to be inconsistent, and if anything, they're shown to be...
very discriminatory towards non-English speakers because the pace in which a non-English speaker will type or write oftentimes triggers those AI detection systems. So whether it's a turn it in or something similar to that, the consistency of those working is not good. I actually don't even, the university that I work for uses it. I ignore it completely because I believe it's so inconsistent in how it operates.
Rick Sola (41:03.216)
Yeah, interesting. No, I had not heard that, but that's that is interesting because I think that is.
Trevor Goertzen (41:07.054)
Yeah, just dig into the research on AI detection software. That's what I'd encourage people to do, is dig into it before you invest in it.
Rick Sola (41:12.113)
Yeah.
So I mean, I could go on and we could talk forever about AI. super, it's just really, I think of it as a new frontier, but as you project as much as you can, five to 10 years from now, what do you think AI is gonna look like in the mainstream classroom?
Trevor Goertzen (41:31.34)
Yeah, I, man, I think what you're gonna see is you're gonna see a big divide in schools that adopt and schools that don't. And you're gonna see some even bigger discrepancies in student success because of that. Not to say that schools that use AI will be better off. I don't mean it in that way.
But because, I think one of the greatest struggles we have right now in education is staffing. Like we just don't have the staff to take care of the needs we have. And schools that utilize AI to fill those gaps, I think are gonna be better off. Now, if you're a school that can already take care of staffing and it's not an issue, I think you'll be just fine. But schools that can't handle that staffing gaps that utilize AI, I think you're gonna be able make sure those students are moving forward appropriately. I also think you're gonna see every student have their own
Tutor that every that Rick Sola and my own three kids that they're gonna have their own tutor that essentially works with them and follows them everywhere they go that it's embedded within their own just like they have their own logins for emails and for whatever they're gonna have their own assistance and they're gonna give it a name and they're gonna have Chad I go to Chad for help and assistance. I really believe that is what's gonna be kind of the next big wave for us
Rick Sola (42:50.94)
That's interesting. And I think about iPads when those came on the scene and it's a personal device, an iDevice, and you customize it to yourself. And it's not a far reach to think that we will have those assistants that we customize to ourselves or whatever, or in the classroom. So like I said, I could go on and ask all sorts of questions. Trevor, where are we going to see you next? Are you going to be at any of our conferences around or?
Trevor Goertzen (42:54.295)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Trevor Goertzen (43:16.718)
You know, I was at KPA, oh it was a couple months ago, had the opportunity to be there. Hope to be at USA here in a few weeks. Always happy to come out and visit individual school districts in Kansas. Man, I'll be out in Holton next week, Topeka, just in Olathe. I was in Lewisburg a weeks ago, I'm sorry, Lewisburg, I in Peo'ola a couple weeks ago. If you're out there, I'd love to come out and help support, come out do some PD with you guys.
just help support the growth of appropriate and responsible AI use.
Rick Sola (43:49.318)
Yeah, Trevor, I'll put your contact information in the show notes here if people have questions, want to reach out and so forth. I really appreciate your time today. Before we go, a lot of times I like to end the show by, you know, kind of a shout out, celebrate of our people. You were connected for six years with KPA and you're in the education world for so long. Any people out there you want to shout out or?
Trevor Goertzen (44:16.724)
man, there's some good ones. And actually I'm gonna start with, he's not with us anymore, but Dwayne Dorshot. Dwayne was the executive director of KPA and he passed away unexpectedly. Man, it's probably almost been four years ago now, but he was a great friend and mentor along with Britton Hart and currently Carrie Leedy. But really a couple principles that have still been great friends.
People like Jackie Feist out in Dodge, just an incredible educator. Kristen Kraft there in the Andover area. Just folks that have always, whether it was principalship, whether it just personally, have always been great friends. Kelly Whitaker down in Ottawa has been such a great friend and resource. Brad Wilson and Rod Sprague. So lot of good folks that I have great fond memories of. Even good old Ron Berry. Man, he's a superintendent now, but we came in together and now he's a superintendent.
Same with mantle Greg Lear, he's a superintendent now too. So all these dudes, Nick Olson or Owens, these dudes that started out as principals and now they're superintendents. Just think very highly of lot of these men and women.
Rick Sola (45:24.528)
Well, thank you for your contribution. like I started the top of this podcast with for your contribution to this podcast here, not just today, but in its beginning, if you will, back over the summer. you've been been a big help, but I really appreciate your time and you sharing this information. This is really good stuff. Super interesting, fascinating. We'll definitely look for you here in the upcoming conferences and stay warm.
Safe out there.
Trevor Goertzen (45:56.44)
Thank you Rick, appreciate it.
Rick Sola (45:57.586)
Alright, take care.
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