Paving the path: Access to good jobs for all

Inclusivity Included: Powerful personal stories

This year, we commemorated National Disabilities Employment Awareness Month by exploring how employers can work toward providing access to good jobs for persons with disabilities in the legal profession; the tangible benefits of employing persons with disabilities; the feasibility of providing accommodations; and the use of assistive technology. Our speakers provided their thoughts on best practices, shared personal journeys and insights, and reflected on how far employers have come and where we need to focus to increase future employment opportunities for persons with disabilities in the legal profession and beyond. Our guests included Kevin Hara: Counsel, Reed Smith; Ronza Othman: President, National Association of Blind Government Employees – a division of the National Federation of the Blind; Nicholas Carden: Associate General Counsel, Coinbase, and former Board Member of Disability:IN; and Laurie Allen: Microsoft, Senior Accessibility Technology Evangelist.

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Transcript:

Intro: Welcome to the Reed Smith Podcast, Inclusivity Included, Powerful Personal Stories. In each episode of this podcast, our guests will share their personal stories, passions, and challenges, past and present, all with a goal of bringing people together and learning more about others. You might be surprised by what we all have in common, Inclusivity Included.

Kevin: Hello, everybody. Welcome back to an episode of Inclusivity Included. Thank you, everyone, for joining. My name is Kevin Hara. I'm counsel at Reed Smith in the Life Sciences and Health Industries Group, and I'm proud to commemorate National Disabilities Employment Awareness Month, which is in October of every year. And this year's theme is access to good jobs for all. We have a number of distinguished panelists today joining us, including Ronza Othman, who is president of the National Association of Blind Government Employees, a division of the National Federation of the Blind. Nick Carden, associate general counsel from Coinbase, a former board member of Disability:IN. And Laurie Allen from Microsoft, a senior accessibility technology evangelist. So thank you, Ronza, Nick, and Laurie for joining us. We're thrilled to have you here as part of our podcast. And without further ado, I would like to ask Ronza to talk a little bit about your journey, how you have arrived where you are, and some of the important steps you took that led you to where you are today.

Ronza: Great. Thank you so much. I'm really delighted to be here. I am a blind attorney and my training was initially as a high school STEM teacher. And that's what I did to get myself through law school. And ultimately I've had a number of different legal jobs, but in state and local government and private sector, ultimately ended up in the federal government where now I manage civil rights programs for a large federal agency. And so my journey has been one of exploration and learning, not only because, you know, being a lawyer, an attorney is always difficult for any person, but also when you add the complications of inaccessible technology and perceptions about people with disabilities and what they can and cannot do, and the obstacles that those negative attitudes create, there's definitely been some really interesting experiences along the way, but I think that I'm optimistic in terms of where we are now. So my paid job, of course, is with the government. And as a volunteer, I serve as the president of the National Association of Blind Government Employees, where we have a number of blind and low vision employees of state, local, federal, and pseudo-government agencies that are members that are experiencing life as public servants, supporting this country at the local and state and national level. It is an honor to represent them and us in a variety of different circumstances, and I've gotten to do a lot of really cool things as a result.

Kevin: That's great. Thank you so much, Ronza. And Nick, if you'd like to share a little bit about your path that led you to where you are today.

Nicholas: Thanks, Kevin. And thanks to Reed Smith for having us. This is a great opportunity to speak about an important issue that impacts all of us on this call. I, like Ronza, I am a lawyer with a disability. I started my career right out of law school in-house, which is somewhat unusual, but it sort of led me to where I am today in the sense that early in my career, I was a true corporate generalist, and through various personnel changes and responsibility changes, I was at a consumer products manufacturing company and had the opportunity to pick up some, advertising and marketing and entertainment legal work. And I really enjoyed that type of work. It's a lot of fun. It's fast paced and it's highly creative and interesting work. So I've stayed in that sort of practice area as an in-house lawyer through my career to today where at Coinbase, I lead a global marketing legal team.

Kevin: Great. Thank you, Nick. And Laurie, we'd love to hear a little bit about the path you took to where you are today.

Laurie: Thanks, Kevin. And thank you again for inviting us to join you to talk about this great topic. So I am not an attorney. I work at Microsoft, as you mentioned. And I've been in tech for about 30 years. I've only been at Microsoft for a little over two. But my journey actually into accessibility started about nine and a half years ago when I had a spinal cord injury. and became quadriplegic. The only thing that didn't dramatically change about my life in that moment was my ability to do my job. And that's because of accessible technology that was available to me. And frankly, my job was quite literally a lifeline for me. So I'm so grateful that people came before me to create this technology. And about three years ago, I had this epiphany. How did this technology get created? And who built it? And why am I not part of the solution. So that's when I started pivoting my career into accessibility. So I feel quite fortunate to be in a role where I can combine my background in technology with my lived experience as a person with disability to help empower others like me, find meaningful employment, and succeed and thrive.

Kevin: Thank you so much. All of you have had such unique experiences and out to the successful careers that you are now engaged in today, but it hasn't always been easy for persons with disabilities in the legal profession and other professions to succeed. So I'd like to stay with you, Laurie, and to ask you, what do you believe are some of the barriers or challenges for persons with disabilities to find access to good jobs?

Laurie: And I think Ronza had mentioned it earlier, it's access to technology. It's discoverability, I find, that can be a barrier. People just don't know what technologies are available to support them in their work environments. And beyond that, it's finding companies who've built inclusive work environments for employees with disabilities, so that when they go through the interview process, they feel included, they feel supported, and as they're onboarded and as they can continue through their career. And then understanding that there are platforms that are available, like Mentra, for example, is a Microsoft partner. It's an amazing neurodiversity hiring platform. But I think just knowing what's available is sometimes quite difficult. And, you know, when people incur a disability like I did, they're starting from scratch, and they don't know what to ask for because it's a new environment for them.

Kevin: Thank you. That's a really good point. Having the access to the proper tools is key for anybody with a disability to succeed in any career path. Ronza, how about your perspective? How would you characterize some of the challenges people are facing and ways to overcome them?

Ronza: I think that the biggest challenge that the people with disabilities are really facing in terms of employment and just moving about society and contributing meaningfully in employment settings, but also in every setting, is the negative attitudes that people at large have about disability. Negative stereotypes. The unemployment rate for people with disabilities in the United States is over 50%. The unemployment rate for people who are blind and low vision in the United States is half again that almost at 75%. It's currently at 73%. That's mind boggling. These are people who want to work for the most part, but can't because nobody will hire them or because they don't have the proper training to be able to perform the jobs where there is a need. But all that really comes down to society's low expectations for people with disabilities and the barriers, artificial, usually, that society creates and puts in our way. One of the things that I really like to do as a hiring manager is I love meeting with and interviewing people with disabilities because they're so creative in their problem-solving. Their solutioning is out of the box thinking. And just to get to work in the morning, to get to the job, they have to have solved a whole bunch of problems in an environment, in a situation, in a society, not necessarily built for them. Whether it's the broken elevator, or whether it's the bus that didn't roll up to the bus stop where it was supposed to, or whether it's the technology that didn't work because somebody pushed a security update, so it broke its ability to communicate with assistive technology, or whether it's somebody, a well-meaning, you know, abled person who decided that they know where this person is trying to go and they're going to force them to go there as opposed to where the person is actually trying to go. All of those things, people with disabilities problem solve before they, you know, really start their day or as they're starting their day. And so I think we don't give enough credit to the workforce of folks with disabilities in terms of what they can do, what they have done, frankly, and then society just has negative expectations. The biggest aspect of disability isn't the disability itself. It's people without disabilities or people who don't understand disabilities who get in our way.

Nicholas: I’d love to add to that because I agree with a lot of that. And I think thinking about access to jobs, the question that comes to mind to me is, do employers want to hire persons with disabilities. And I think there's no clear answer to that. And obviously, companies themselves are just made up of other human beings. And so there's, to Ronza’s point, the stigma attached to hiring persons with disabilities is ever present. But I'll share specifically in the legal industry, I think this industry does a particularly poor job of being intentional about hiring a truly diverse workforce. And this is, I'm calling out the legal industry as somebody who's in it, but I don't think it's unique to the legal industry in the sense that I still don't think when law firms are hiring for diverse candidates that they make a particular effort to recruit persons with disabilities. I think it can be as simple as asking for a voluntary disclosure on an application. And I still don't think as an industry we're doing those types of things. So there seem to be opportunities if the answer to the question of do you want to hire persons with disabilities is yes.

Ronza: I’ll just add to that, if I may. When you look at the United States census data on people with disabilities, somewhere between 20% and 25% of the population of this country has a disability. When you look at the census in the legal profession, when you look at the numbers in the legal profession, and the American Bar Association has done extensive research trying to sort this out, figure it out, as some other entities, it's less than 1%. Less than 1% of attorneys in the United States are willing to disclose that they have a disability. And those who are, it's usually an obvious or very visible disability, as opposed to some of these hidden disabilities that there's still so much stigma in the legal profession around. In the regular generic work industry generally, not specifically the legal profession, but everywhere, there's this misconception that it's going to be really expensive to hire somebody with a disability because you have to accommodate them or you have to adjust schedules or policies and so forth and so on. The Job Accommodation Network, which is a free resource to employers and employees about what's available in terms of reasonable accommodations for those with disabilities, did a study and they determined that the average cost of a reasonable accommodation is less than $100. So talking about negative attitudes and negative perceptions, one of them for employers, It's that it's going to cost me a lot of money or somehow the work I'm going to receive from this person is going to be less in terms of quality or quantity than other non-disabled employees and so forth and so on. And all of that is just not accurate. It's not supported by research and it's certainly not supported by those of us in the community with lived experience in the workforce.

Kevin: That's an excellent point, Ronza, and Nick as well. You both have captured the problem that we're facing in providing good jobs to persons with disabilities. I think dispelling the myths and misconceptions is one of the important steps. And I also think technology can play an important role. We alluded to this a little bit more, but Laurie, if you would like to speak a little bit more about how technology can really help people with disabilities succeed.

Laurie: Thanks, Kevin. So the way we approach it at Microsoft is we build with the community, not for the community. We mentioned it in the last question. We bring people with lived experience into our company. We want that diverse lived experience in our product making. I have a spinal cord injury. I know what it's like to have a mobility disability. I don't know what it's like to be blind and rely on a screen reader. And I can't assume what someone who uses a screen reader needs. So we take an approach of building in early. We build in accessibility into the design phase of our product development life cycle. We bring testers in who have different types of disabilities to test our products before we release them. And what we find, and Ron's mentioned it earlier, is that we get really creative solutions because, as she mentioned, we have to be creative to get out the door every morning. And when we do this, we find that everyone benefits. When we call it Built for One, Extend to Many. When we build with the disability community, everyone benefits. And I'll give you an example. For example, live captions were built for people who are deaf or hard of hearing, but 50% of Americans watch videos with live captions on, and if you narrow that down to Gen Z, it goes up to about 80%. So when we build for people with disabilities, everyone benefits.

Kevin: I think that's a really astute observation. It's not just about helping one particular segment, but including people with disabilities when you're building the technology is really important. And, you know, I couldn't thank you more for that approach, Laurie, because, you know, I also have a mobility disability, a spinal cord injury. So I understand from my perspective. But as you said, I wouldn't be able to talk about or understand what the needs of a person with a visual or other disability might be. So that's really good. And Ronza or Nick, would you like to weigh in on technology, how it has helped you, or how do you think it can help others?

Ronza: So technology really is, it leveled the playing field for many populations within the disability community. And so, for example, for the blind community, so much of the information that we receive is visual. So much as paper had historically been paper-based but you know street signs billboards all of the things that happen visually and on the computer though now we can have access to that same information or I can go to an ATM machine and I can plug in my headphones and I can pull out my money I can go to a voting booth in most states and I can privately and independently but vote my ballot. You know there's still places where of course there's work to do but in general the proliferation of technology solutions over the last 20 or 30 years has really made a huge impact on our ability to access information engage in the world and especially with our jobs, so whether it's a screen reader or whether it's a software that's used that is speech to text for those with manual dexterity challenges or whether it's a foot pedal instead of a mouse or whatever the case may be. There's just been such advances in technology that have made it more possible for an individual with a disability to work in so many different fields. Think about all the technology that exists now. Surgeons are doing surgery with robots some of the time. Technology is super cool. It's super advanced and it's only going to get more and more advanced. And so hopefully that means that participation of the disability community at work and in other places is also going to increase. Now, the drawback is, the more innovated the technology, the more risk of potential opportunities to make it inaccessible. And so we have to be really careful when we embrace technology because that's really important, but that it also is accessible. It is compatible with that assistive technology that I mentioned, but also that we're not so focused on creativity and innovation that we're cutting people out that we've recently gave access to these platforms and applications. And we're seeing that. We are seeing technology become less inclusive in lots of different spaces. And then, you know, so build it accessibly, you know, talking to our friends at Microsoft and everywhere else who are thinking about this every day. But also, whether we're building technology or whether we're building buildings or physical spaces or virtual spaces, you know, thinking about what does it mean for us to be inclusive? Who are we building for? And not related to technology, but when we started putting in curb cuts when the ADA was passed, that was primarily done for people who were using wheelchairs and other kinds of mobility devices. And now the population that is the most vocal, the biggest fans, are parents and caregivers of small children that are pushing strollers. And so, you know, again, that sort of universal effort, the Ray-Ban Metaglasses is another example. It wasn't built for people with disabilities, but people with disabilities are using it because it had inclusive universal design built into it. We're using it to read menus and help with navigation indoor and outdoor and wayfinding and all sorts of amazing things happening with technology and beyond. So the key is it's fabulous, but we also have to make sure that it stays fabulous by being inclusive and accessible.

Laurie: You make such a good point there, Ronza, and I think with this wave of generative AI and everyone racing to get products to market, it's more important than ever to be rigorous and disciplined in continuing to build accessibility in from the beginning and test it thoroughly all the way through before it's released.

Ronza: 100%.

Kevin: Ronza and Laurie, those are excellent points that you made. And I really think technology will go a long way to helping people with disabilities of all types become part of the workforce, become part of the legal profession. And I think we have all lived through recently the pandemic that, you know, was affected everyone, not just persons with disabilities. But I think one of the things that came out of that was the importance of remote work and how that can really change the landscape. And Nick, I believe Coinbase is, you said, almost all remote. So can you comment on how that has impacted you and how you think that affects people with disabilities in terms of having access to jobs?

Nicholas: Yeah, Coinbase is a remote first company. So everyone in the company has the option to be remote first. We do have some office locations in some major cities if some people feel like they want to go into an office, but there's no requirement to do that. And in my view, I don't know that remote work benefits just persons with disabilities. I think we can all agree that it benefits a lot more groups than just persons with disabilities. To me, the bottom line of the benefit of remote work is it levels the playing field for everyone. So if we're all remote, we don't. There's no small group or other group or specific individual or groups of individuals that have to worry about what's happening in an office. Are some people getting ahead by having lunches or just getting that face time that they otherwise aren't able to do to be into the office? Whether that's because they live somewhere else where the office isn't, or they're a person with a disability and it's not easy to get into the office, or for any other reason of why it doesn't make sense. I think specifically for parents with children who are working. Remote work is a great benefit. So I love what remote work does for everyone. And it's been a real benefit. I think Coinbase deserves a lot of credit. For being one of the first companies in I think it was may of 2020 to decide that is how we're going to operate our company we think we can do it effectively and so far now you know four plus years later they're doing really well and um i don't have any knowledge that that Coinbase is changing their practices but it works very well for Coinbase and I'm sort of discouraged to see some of these companies deciding to go to a hybrid or fully return to office status. But obviously, that's their decision. And the people that are making that are thinking that it's in their best interest. I just don't know how much input they're getting from a voice of someone with a person with a disability.

Laurie: One other point is it expands the talent pool that employers can recruit from. They're not limited to just their area or just the people who can come into the office, but it really broadens that talent pool and once again, enables them to bring a more diverse workforce into their organization.

Ronza: So I'll say that, you know, in the government workforce, we have seen this switch, right? So prior to the pandemic, there were some people that were working remotely, but not very many because the perception was, no, no, no, we can't do this work remote in a remote way. We need to serve the people, the public, etc. And then the pandemic happened and bam, we have to work remotely in order to serve the people. And then everything was moving along. And I think that was really the renaissance for the disability community and government. And then government started shifting back to more in-person presence and more and more in-person presence. And the thought was, well, if you need to work from home, you can request a reasonable accommodation. And while that's true, it can be very isolating. If we're not building work, community. In a way that's hybrid or in a way that is inclusive of those that are working from home for whatever reason, then we are excluding those people. And so giving them the ability to work from home as a reasonable accommodation, if that's the solution, it can't be the only solution because what it does is it creates a different expectation and standard and isolation. And all these people with a disability are over here and everyone else is over here. And so I think employers need to really be thinking mindfully about what a hybrid work environment looks like and how to ensure inclusion for those who, for whatever reason, are working from home all or much of the time. And we can do it. We have done it. We've been very creative in the last five years. But I think we're just not thinking about it. We're letting the economic and other considerations and, you know, the ease. My favorite phrase that people give me was, well, we need people in the building because of line of sight supervision. And I always say, well, I'm a manager and I'm blind. So line of sight supervision doesn't do anything for me. Are you saying I'm not as good of a manager as you? And then, you know, they don't mean it that way, but that's how it comes off. And that's really how they're thinking. They're thinking they have to be in my space for me to effectively manage them, which we have proven doesn't have to be the case. In fact, we can be very effective as if not more productive with people in their own comfortable environment.

Kevin: Ronza, you expressed that better than I could ever have done. I think that's a really important aspect of remote work. It could not put anyone at a disadvantage or be isolating. With the last couple minutes we have left, I'd just like to hear from everyone about where we have come from and what you'd like to see in the future, some progress we've made, and where you think we still need to improve. So Nick, if you'd like to talk a little bit about that.

Nicholas: Yeah, I'll say I can recall an instance about 12, 13 years ago, maybe, where I was interested in a summer internship with a law firm. And I noticed they had a diversity recruitment event, something like that. And they were looking for women and ethnically diverse or persons of color to attend. And I recall thinking to myself, well, I am a white male, but if they're looking for diverse candidates, I would assume that they would be interested in a person with a disability. So I emailed the firm's event organizer and I sort of posed the question of, can I attend? And of course the answer was yes, but it really goes to show where we were 12 to 14 years ago. And we may still be there in terms of what diversity is and or how law firms specifically view diversity. It may just be that they focus on these two categories. And that is a fine thing. It's just not an inclusive thing. I sort of commend the efforts. And I think we've gone farther than that over the past 12 to 14 years. But if we want to create an inclusive industry, doing so in an exclusive manner is not going to get us there. And I would encourage firms in their recruitment efforts to think about all of the minority groups or underrepresented groups in this industry and make intentional efforts to be inclusive for all of them.

Kevin: Thank you, Nick. Ronza, would you like to add?

Ronza: Sure, I 100% agree. I think that it's not just in the legal profession, it's in a lot of professions that the focus on diversity has been on race and gender and, you know, the SOGI areas. And there hasn't been as much advancement with disability, but this is certainly an opportunity. The American Bar Association currently has a campaign called the Be Counted Campaign for lawyers specifically and those in the legal profession who do have disabilities who can, you know, confidentially essentially be counted as a member of the disability community so that we can get a better number of who in fact is in this profession because we know it's not half a percent. You know, we know it's more than that. And we need to eliminate the stigma in this and every profession for those that are comfortable, psychologically safe, identifying as people with disabilities, even if it's anonymized, to be able to do so. I am optimistic in terms of where we're headed. I think the effort that we've put forward as a disability community and nothing about us without us has really tremendously borne some fruit. And I think though there's work to do, I think we've come a long way. I think that the ADA regulations on Title II that were the Department of Justice released are going to be a game changer. I think that when the Title III regulations are released, whenever that is, it's going to be another huge game changer. I think that Section 508 of the Rehabilitation Act is very, very much in need of a refresh and some updates. And when that happens, and I know there's some effort in Congress already, that's going to help. And I think some of the fundamental civil rights laws and protections in states and in the federal sector are going to continue this progress. But those are just the underpinning. It's the attitudes of people. It's listening to a podcast like this and learning about people you didn't think about before or aspects you didn't think about before, and then becoming a good ally to those communities. If you are in the community and feel comfortable speaking up with your lived experience, that's going to be a game changer too. 25% of this country. That's who we are. And so everybody knows somebody. Everybody has a family member who is a person with a disability who've experienced some of these challenges. Listen to their stories. Ask about their stories. Educate yourself and become a good ally so that the next generation has an easier time. That's what I'm excited about because I see it happening much more often. And I think it will continue to happen in this generation and the ones to come.

Kevin: Thank you so much. Laurie, how about you? what do you see in the future?

Laurie: Well, I think these are all such great points. And I'm going to go back to Nick's example. You know, I think historically DE&I has included, you know, a lot of minority groups except the disability community. And more and more, as I'm speaking with, you know, our enterprise customers, they're starting to add accessibility into that equation and really target disability hiring and bringing disabled talent into their pipelines. A lot of organizations are creating neurodiversity centers of excellence and neurodiversity hiring programs to specifically target that part of the population. So like Ronza said, I'm encouraged and I'm seeing this become a much higher priority for our enterprise customers. And again, to echo what she just said, I think the more we talk about it, the more we have podcasts and people listen to podcasts, the more comfortable and confident we get. I think we don't talk about accessibility because we're uncomfortable talking about disability, because people are afraid they're going to say the wrong thing. And at some point, we are all going to say the wrong thing, and that's okay. It's a learning opportunity for all of us. So again, thank you for the opportunity for us to come together today and talk about this really, really important topic.

Kevin: Well, I just want to say very heartfelt thanks to all of you, Laurie, Ronza, and Nick for all of your insights today, for your time, and for the lessons you've shared with us. I think people will really get a lot out of this. And for our listeners, thank you for joining us for Inclusivity Included, and please stay tuned for future episodes. Thanks, everyone.

Outro: Inclusivity Included is a Reed Smith production. Our producers are Ali McCardell and Shannon Ryan. You can find our podcasts on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, Google Podcasts, reedsmith.com, and our social media accounts.

Disclaimer: This podcast is provided for educational purposes. It does not constitute legal advice and is not intended to establish an attorney-client relationship, nor is it intended to suggest or establish standards of care applicable to particular lawyers in any given situation. Prior results do not guarantee a similar outcome. Any views, opinions, or comments made by any external guest speaker are not to be attributed to Reed Smith LLP or its individual lawyers.

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