APEX Express – 1.16.25 – Pathways To Humanity

KPFA - APEX Express

A weekly magazine-style radio show featuring the voices and stories of Asians and Pacific Islanders from all corners of our community. The show is produced by a collective of media makers, deejays, and activists.

Powerleegirls Hosts Miko Lee and Jalena Keane-Lee host and Ayame Keane-Lee edits a chat about leadership, growth and change during a time of crisis. Listen to Jalena speak with Meng Hua from Tiger Eye Astrology about her path from palm reading to artistry to bazi. Then hear Miko speak with Zen Master Norma Wong about her new book When No Thing Works.

More information about our guests:

Meng Hua’s Tiger Eye Astrology

Zen Master Norma Wong her new book When No Thing Works

Guide to how to hold space about the book

Pathways To Humanity Show Transcript

Opening: [00:00:00] Apex Express Asian Pacific expression. Community and cultural coverage, music and calendar, new visions and voices, coming to you with an Asian Pacific Islander point of view. It’s time to get on board the Apex Express.

Ayame Keane-Lee: [00:00:29] Tonight on APEX Express: the PowerLeeGirls mother-daughters team. I’m the editor of tonight’s show Ayame Keane-Lee joined by our hosts Jalena Keane-Lee and Miko Lee. Tune in as they interview our guests about Pathways – internal and external journeys we take to connect to humanity. First my sister Jalena speaks with Meng Yu about her journey as a full time artist and practitioner of the mantic arts. Then Mama Miko speaks with Norma Wong, the abbot of Anko-in about her latest book When No Thing Works. So listen in to APEX Express. First up is Jalena’s interview with Meng Yu.

Jalena Keane-Lee: [00:01:08] Hello, everyone. I am here with Meng Yu, who is a Chinese astrologer from Tiger Eye Astrology. And today we’re talking all about astrology and learning from the stars and other elements to help guide our life path and our decisions and choices. Thanks so much for being here, Meng.

Meng Yu: [00:01:27] Thanks so much for having me, Jalena. It’s a pleasure to have this conversation with you.

Jalena Keane-Lee: [00:01:33] It truly is. and so I’m curious if you could just start us off talking a little bit, you know, about your practice and how you came to the work that you’re doing today.

Meng Yu: [00:01:42] I have been a practitioner of the mantic arts for, over a decade and the mantic arts, include astrology, but also divination. So as part of my practice, I also do I Ching or Yijing divination. and it’s a kind of circuitous way of how I ended up on this path. I’m also a, a full time artist. and you know, that’s kind of how I make my bread and butter. And it’s also. In a way, how I approach, Chinese astrology and divination as well, I guess to backtrack a little bit, I always like to start by honoring my teachers and their lineages. So, primarily my teacher has been Master Zongxian Wu, who is my Bazi teacher and also is the lineage holder of, four traditional schools of internal arts. and then I also have a host of daoist teachers who are also artists. their own right, visual artists, martial artists, writers who live in and embody the Dao. these include Lindsey Wei, Dengming Dao, uh, Tamara Jha, Lily Kai. And so, I also want to shout out to my group. Late sixth great aunt as well. My Leo Gupo, who when I was eight years old, she gave me my first introduction to the art of divination through. palm reading. so she actually taught me, sort of an Eastern style of palm reading at a young age. But growing up, other than that, I, was not influenced by, this, form of, wisdom traditions from my heritage. My parents are, both Chinese and they are both, of the cultural revolution generation, which was a mass genocide that occurred in China, right as they were coming of age. So they’re very, survival oriented, practical people, you know, from Just historically in China, from the fall of the Qing dynasty to the rise of communism, much of the mantic arts traditions, were basically lost in the cultural landscape. So, how I came to this work, was not really so much through my upbringing as, The search for, I guess, healing in my own life experiences and coming to, sort of critical junctures, and crisis, personal crises in my life where I really sought, alternative, dimensions and ways of, reconnecting to my My purpose and just healing in my life. So I, over a decade ago found myself, in the jungles of Peru, having very close, connections to a shamanistic tradition involving plant medicine, which opened me up to really asking, you know, what are the shamanic and animistic roots. of the wisdom traditions from my own heritage. And this brought me to working with the Yijing, as well as Chinese astrology. So that’s, that’s kind of a mouthful. It’s a bit of a long and complicated story, but that’s, that’s sort of the bullet notes version.

Jalena Keane-Lee: [00:05:18] Thank you so much for sharing that. It’s perfect because my next question was going to be about, you know, your lineage of healers that you studied under, but I feel like you covered that already really well. So I’m curious, you know, you talked about Bazi and Yijing, could you kind of give us a little bit of a breakdown of these like different modalities and how you use them?

Meng Yu: [00:05:35] Sure, absolutely. so, In the readings that I do for folks, the most popular readings are actually a combination of Yijing divination and Bazi astrology. So to give a little context for both, the Yijing Translates as the book of change or the book of changes it, although it has roots and what we would call, currently ancient Siberia, ancient China, it actually dates back to Neolithic times. Really before, the formation of these nation states. So it’s some of our early human ancestors. It’s their recorded search for wisdom through the observation of cycles and patterns in nature over thousands of years. as the book of change, as the study of change, it’s the oldest compounded record of, the study of time itself. and the Bazi astrology is a modality of Chinese astrology that really came into prominence during the Han Dynasty. the turn of the century, the common era, and, it translates as eight characters. So ba meaning eight and zi meaning character. So there is a element in animal for not only your year of birth, which is what? Folks are mostly familiar with, but also the month, day, and hour. So these are called four pillars. So sometimes the system is called the four pillars of destiny. And we get a look at, these characters that make up one’s nature. And the way that I So when I see the two modalities working together, I often give people the metaphor of, you know, say you’re in, the ocean of your life and you’re driving a boat or a ship. The Yijing is like a weather report. The Yijing gives us an idea of the changes that we are currently in. So are we headed in a storm? is it clear blue skies ahead? What are the conditions of the wind and the waves? And the bazi chart looks at the kind of ship that you are driving. So it could be, you know, a submarine. It could be a sailboat. It could be an ocean tanker. And they all have different conditions. strengths and gifts and flavors of power, as well as certain kinds of limitations and vulnerabilities. And so the bazi chart really looks at these qualities of our nature and encourages us to embrace who we actually are so that we can learn to drive our ship better.

Jalena Keane-Lee: [00:08:47] Thank you so much for that breakdown and description, and in addition to offering readings, of which I loved, I absolutely loved getting a reading with you, and it was so informative and inspirational, but in addition to these readings and offerings that you have for other people, I’m curious how you use these modalities in your own life, whether it’s with your art practice, or just with life choices and changes how do you, use these ways of knowing for yourself?

Meng Yu: [00:09:12] It’s very important for me as an astrologer and as a daoist to, to align my life according to the times, these modalities, both the Yijing and Chinese astrology. What they point to at the foundation of their wisdom is the question of what time is it, right? This is where the roots of the tradition come from. It’s from telling time, and through understanding time and studying time, we’re able to divine When is a good time? what is the right time? And knowing that gives our lives profound meaning and context. so, on the more kind of mundane level, it’s adjusting my calendar to observe time with this additional context of living with the seasons. there’s actually 24 different seasons, according to the qi nodes of The Chinese lunar and solar calendar. There’s also the lunar cycles as well. And these are not simple, mathematical markings. They have, very deep meanings behind them that help us align with the qi quality of the moment. So they give our lives meaning by showing us, is this a time to sow seeds, to be inspired and enlivened like springtime? is it a time of Growing potential, or are we entering a time where we need to, not be accumulating, in terms of harvest, but actually be engaged in shedding, by observing the patterns and cycles of nature, And following the nature of the forces that we find ourselves in, we can align ourselves to live in harmony, and to be in, better alignment with the dao. So that’s one way that I see the Chinese calendar providing context for my life. The wisdom of the Yijing has been such a profound. Collaborator in my life. not only in studying and attempting to apply its wisdom, but also has been an incredible creative collaborator for me as an artist. So, one of my favorite things to do is to divine with the Yijing to help make creative choices in my work, and to really treat the Oracle as a collaborator. So I really enjoyed using it in this creative way and as a practice for listening and channeling, which I think is useful for any artist to engage in a meditative practice where, it’s not a sense of creativity coming necessarily from you, but actually through you. and that’s something that the Yijing through working with it for so many years has really taught me to embody.

Jalena Keane-Lee: [00:12:19] I love that so much. have you noticed any changes in your life, your energy levels, or your art practice since kind of aligning your life with these forces?

Meng Yu: [00:12:30] Yeah, you know, I would love to say, Oh, everything’s just gotten better and better. Now I just live like the perfect artist life. It’s that would, that’s really not, nothing could be really further from the truth because I think it’s really about being in the school of life. You know that this is a form of education and it’s a continual form of practice, and, as I’ve been engaged in it, in over 10 years, every year, the lessons have, there’s been more layers of depth and challenge, which I think is, , Something that unfolds sort of dependent on what you’re you’re ready for. There is a hexagram in the Yijing that Shows you that you are undergoing a massive transition where you’re carrying the burden of a really heavy weight . And one of the things you’re encouraged to see is to reflect on how, what you are experiencing now is something that would have completely overwhelmed you a year ago or a cycle ago. We are given tasks. And, asked to carry burdens, given what we are ready for. And so, although I would like to say, Oh, it’s made my life so easy. I know what to do all the time now. That’s not the narrative at all. I feel like there’s a kind of profound, I guess maybe meditative experience where I have a little bit more distance now from things affecting me, in an immediate personal way because now I can, refer to. This collaborator, this friend, for advice or allowing me to see where I am in a cycle to reflect what I have exited from, hopefully to be prescient of what’s to come, to identify familiar themes and to see, that I’m continuously revolving around, a spiral where Certain points come back that feel very familiar, but it’s a couple rungs, deeper, where it’s not like just a circle of things repeating, but it’s a spiral where there’s new layers of depth that, follow familiar themes, if that makes sense.

Jalena Keane-Lee: [00:15:06] Yeah, that does. and I know you’ve talked about, too, how it’s like a method for communicating with your ancestors and kind of having An additional channel of communication. So I’m just curious about, yeah, that kind of practice of communication and bringing that forward in your work and how that experience has been for you.

Meng Yu: [00:15:28] Yeah. the piece about ancestors is really an interesting one, because I think what the gift of Chinese astrology to me is that it puts The self within a kind of different context where we’re encouraged to see ourselves, not as some, definable thing that has innate qualities, but through Chinese astrology, where we see the elements, the animals, the the stars that indicate ancestral influences, the, unfinished business, the karma, the fate of our ancestors that have been given to us. We’re encouraged to see the self as just a live kind of wiggly end of 10, 000 dead people. You know, that what makes us who we are is an enormous inheritance. And what we are here to play out in our lives is this dance between fate and freedom. It doesn’t mean that we don’t have access to creativity in our lives, but that freedom is inherently, explored and discovered through playing with the limitations of our fate. So for instance, in our natal charts, You can see certain hauntings or ghost energies, inherited from ancestors. So for instance, in my personal chart, I have an inheritance called hidden moaning, which shows an ancestor that has not completed grieving and grief work in their lifetime. And so it kind of. imbues my life with unexplainable bouts of sadness. sometimes this can result in, depression, grieving, this like, wailing grief and knowing this in my chart, I’m able to see that kind of sadness is not something that is just mine, meaning, you know, growing up, the question would be like, Oh, why me, or what am I doing wrong? Why do I feel like this? What’s wrong with me? When we look at our lives through the context of ancestors, it becomes a lot more relational, meaning your grief, these burdens are not simply yours. They’re a call for communication with your lineage and opening up that pathway, that communication itself is how we resolve the fate of our ancestors. by Listening by asking, what is it that they want, our lives are not just lived for us, but our lives are a way for our ancestors to resolve unfinished chi, that they were not able to complete in their lifetimes. So, you know, when I feel these bouts of sadness, I know that it’s time for me to open up these channels, that I can sit in meditation, that I can, engage in my creative practice as a way to channel and speak to my ancestors and ask them what it is that they would like to come forth. What messages they have? That they need to share and speak.

Jalena Keane-Lee: [00:19:11] Wow, you just dropped so many gems and I was like taking notes. I really like that idea of, you know, this dance between fate and freedom and living out our ancestors kind of unfinished business and promises and hopes. And I’m curious also how this practice has impacted or potentially deepened your own understanding of your culture and your relationship to being Chinese or Chinese American or however you identify.

Meng Yu: [00:19:40] Yeah, it’s really provided. I feel extremely honored and, you know that I’ve been able to work with so many amazing teachers and adepts and have been trusted to practice as well as teach these modalities. it has brought me really close to my ancestors in a very intimate way, you know, like I just talked about with hidden moaning, as well as giving me such an appreciation for the wisdom traditions of my heritage. and this really dates back really beyond, again, our understanding of the nation states of, you know, what it means to be Chinese, it actually gives me a lot of respect for what our ancient human ancestors have left behind for us, their legacy, you know, because the roots of this tradition Like I mentioned, it actually goes back 50, 70, 000 years ago to the retreat of the last ice age. And so we’re really talking about nomadic hunter gatherers and their survival, how they observed nature, terrains, and sky. Over cyclical time, they survived by following migration routes of animals and celestial bodies that allowed them to engage in an animistic perspective of life, that, all landscapes, including the landscapes of the cosmos, all of nature is sentient. And this. I guess that world view of aliveness of sentience and intelligence, as well as reciprocity and resonance. You know, that all environments and us, because we are innately tied to that, we are nature. You know, that we’re in this reciprocal conversation all the time with life, that I think has had the most profound influence on my life, this idea that we’re not just caretakers of the environment, but we are the environment. We are all adapting to each other too. The forces around us inside of us that there’s this continual movement of cycles and circulation. that I think is really this wisdom core of the tradition that has really made me feel like not just a citizen of my culture and my ethnicity, but really a citizen of this planet, of Earth. from literally, you know, the air that we breathe, down to the food that we eat down to our blood, it’s the same movement of circulation that connects us all and this, you know, really informs my, my worldview and my sense of belonging, my sense of, communion with life.

Jalena Keane-Lee: [00:22:54] I feel like these messages and this kind of information about ancestors, unfinished business, purpose in life. It can be both empowering and overwhelming at times. Like, that was my experience of the reading as well. And we’re living at a time where In the US for sure and also globally where there’s so much going on and it is a moment that can feel empowering at times but also can feel very, very overwhelming so I’m curious if there are certain ways that you practice keeping the faith in amidst times like these or navigating things that are overwhelming but can be seen as, empowering at the same time.

Meng Yu: [00:23:32] Yeah, absolutely. That’s a really fabulous question. you mentioned faith, and I think that’s a really interesting concept to dig into because I actually hesitate to use the word faith. I like to use the word trust know that we can develop our existential trust through understanding. Tempo with these. modalities, like I mentioned, there’s this, putting us back into time, into rhythm, not just Chinese astrology. I think all ancient calendars does this for us, that they Put us back into an earth based tempo and rhythm and helps us understand that the meaning of our lives come from the context of everything that sustains us. And that this isn’t some kind of belief system that you have to be indoctrinated in. It is an observable truth that you can see through observing patterns. and cyclical time. Yin and yang is not some far fetched idea that you have to believe in. It’s literally night and day, these are the basic rhythms through which our lives have delineation and tempo and when we develop our synchronicity with this type of regularity and rhythm, we develop a kind of trust. and This trust comes from confidence through observation over time, and because we don’t like live outside anymore, we’re not really in touch with what our ancestors, the ancients observed and recorded in their calendars. You know, the regularity of movement from observing the sun, the moon, the stars and the seasons. And when we can reunite with that, that actually provides a sense of trust. so, when we engage in these modalities, whether it’s astrology or divination, we’re, we’re reading tempo and even with Chinese medicine, Chinese medicine takes a pulse, you know, it’s reading your body as a tempo. It’s indicating your rhythm, the quality of your rhythm. So even in our medicine, we are reading our bodies temporally. So this idea of time is so fundamental for me in this idea of trust in alignment with rhythm and regularity. In the Tao Te Ching, which is one of the canonical texts of Daoism, the word for trust, Ching, is used many times and it’s about, trust is defined. also as a kind of power. It’s defined as how beings attain their actuality, that you need trust in order to grow, that it’s part of your process of becoming. And through Daoism and through Chinese astrology, which was very much, informed through Daoism. And we learned that the way to grow our Xing, our trust, is to return our body to the rhythm of the universe. Now that the Daoist cure for our anxieties, which stem from a sense of our independent existence. You know, of our, individuality that is such a small, piece of this enormity. The cure for our anxieties is to identify our singularity, our single body with the body of the whole world. And we do that through aligning our tempo, aligning our rhythm. this is one way that we see the intricate ways that we are all interconnected. And I know I just said some really kind of big abstract things, but, I hope that’s making sense.

Jalena Keane-Lee: [00:27:49] Yes, no, aligning and yeah, the tempo and pace of the world. I saw something recently that was like, you know, the power of treating our own bodies like gardens that we’re cultivating and not like machines. And I feel like that’s sticking to what you were just talking about, too, of like, you know, we are also. Plants and beings that need to be tended to and taken care of and to see ourselves that way in alignment with like the world and the pace of the world.

Meng Yu: [00:28:16] Yeah, absolutely. I love that plant metaphor because it brings us back in touch with life and life cycles, that seeds are sown in the spring. Leaves are shed in the fall, you know, that. Life force and life energy also needs to have time to retreat and withdraw in the winter. All the chi is going back underneath the ground where it’s not visible. All the outward and external energy is going inward. It’s going hidden. That’s the power of yin. When we observe and practice modalities that have survived, not just one genocide, but many, many genocides over thousands of years, we can start to build of broader understanding of the patterns of the universe, the cycles of time. And this is one way that we can embrace and this work with the realities of what’s happening, you know, in the current poly crises of our times in, civilization and ecological collapse, you know, it’s important that we come to terms with where we are in cycles so that we do the practice that is needed of the Grieving of shedding the anger and the sadness that comes with this time to not live in denial of it and to learn from our ancestors and how they have survived through these times through the practice and the wisdom of understanding, The cycles of nature, how we renew and, regenerate life, the daoists were really concerned with, what is called immortality, but immortality is not like one person living forever. Immortality is. A broader concept about the continuation of life, you know, how do we live in a way that is truly sustainable, that is self sustaining in Chinese, the word for nature is zhi ran, which means self: zhi ran self fulfilling, self renewing, self sustaining. So embedded in the wisdom of these practices is this sense of aligning our lives, aligning our choices in a way that allows life to continue.

Jalena Keane-Lee: [00:30:52] Absolutely. Yes. more life and more environments where life can grow and thrive. I’m curious, you know, if anyone who’s listening is now really interested in learning more about Chinese astrology, learning more about your work, what would be the best ways for them to start? And then also if there’s anything else that you want to share.

Meng Yu: [00:31:11] The best way to find me is to go to my website. I’m not on social media, so, you’ll have to get on the web and find me at www. tigereyeastrology.com and from there you can, contact me, request a reading, as well as just read more about, the different modalities that I practice, a little more about myself, and the perspectives that I bring.

Ayame Keane-Lee: [00:31:38] You are listening to 94.1 KPFA and 89.3 KPFB in Berkeley, 88.1 KFCF in Fresno, 97.5 K248BR in Santa Cruz, 94.3 K232FZ in Monterey, and online worldwide at kpfa.org. Next up is Miko’s interview with Norma Wong.

Miko Lee: [00:32:01] Welcome Norma Wong to Apex Express. We are so happy to have you with us today.

Norma Wong: [00:32:06] Aloha, Mikko. Thank you for having me.

Miko Lee: [00:32:09] I want to just first start off, you, hold dear to my heart. I just finished reading your book, which I’m excited to talk about, but I just want to start in the very beginning by asking you a question, which is based on a question from the amazing poet Chinaka Hodges. Who are your people, and what legacy do you carry with you from them?

Norma Wong: [00:32:29] Oh, Miko, how much time do you have? my people are people of the Pacific. You know, the people who came, who crossed the ocean, now six generations ago to this place called Hawaii, who are the haka. Nomadic people of China who really traveled all over China came as contract work and my people are the indigenous people of Hawaii, of these islands where I live and where you happen to be right now, on in terms of this interview and, with the indigenous people, the Kanaka Maoli, the native wines of this place. I am blessed to be the ancestors of these two strong strands of people and really, people who have long migrated, irrespective of where they’re coming from, where they’re going to.

Miko Lee: [00:33:23] That is beautiful. And what legacy do you carry with you from those people?

Norma Wong: [00:33:28] I would say the legacy that I carry is the legacy of remembering food, remembering stories, passing on stories, creating stories into the future so that we may know where it is that we will go to. And I would say that I also carry the legacy of people who can both be with each other and also be fiercely independent with respect to not having to really depend on anything other than their wits, the land that they’re on, of the people who are close to them, what the winds may be able to tell them.

Miko Lee: [00:34:11] Thank you so much. I’m very excited. I just finished reading your new book, which is titled, When No Thing Works: A Zen and Indigenous Perspective on Resilience, shared purpose, and leadership in the timeplace of collapse. Incredibly long title and incredibly appropriate for the time we live in right now. Can you share a little bit about what inspired you to create this work?

Norma Wong: [00:34:39] Well, I will, I will say frankly that the book would have not been written if not for Taj James and some of your listeners may know who this is. He is a movement leader and activist, who resides in Northern California, but really does a lot of work everywhere. And Taj, actually convinced me over a two year time period, to write this particular book. And I finally did so, because of a question that he asked. The question that he asked is, with respect to the kinds of knowledge that spiritual ways practice and pass on person to person, can that happen quickly enough only with the people who are directly in front of you? Will that happen quickly enough for the times that we’re in? And I had to reflect upon that and say, no, because we were in a time of collapse. And so I had to take the chance of writing something that would find its way into the hands of people who were not directly in front of me. And that is, not the ways of the long line of teachers that I have had.

Miko Lee: [00:35:58] Can you talk a little bit about some of the teachers that you’ve had and how you carry on the legacy of those teachers that you have had, the impact they’ve made on you.

Norma Wong: [00:36:09] I’ve been blessed with many teachers, some of whom are in my young time days. I particularly remember a teacher from my elementary school days, Mrs. Trudy Akau. She was, Native Hawaiian and Portuguese and a woman of big voice and grand stature. And Mrs. Akau really wanted every single one of her students to Be able to find voice in whatever ways, that they might, whether it be writing or through reading or speaking, telling stories. So I certainly remember. This is a call. I remember Tanoi Roshi, uh, my Zen teacher. He was born Stanley Tanoi, second generation Japanese American grew up in Hawaii and who became a teacher. in his own right, not only with respect to Zen, but the martial arts and Stanley Tanoy, who we all know is Tanoy Roshi, is certainly considered to be my primary spiritual teacher, for whom it is now my responsibility to follow his line. I would say that there are people that I have worked with. who are my teachers, you know, so John Waiheee, who was the first native Hawaiian governor of Waii, I certainly consider him to be a significant teacher of mine, as do some young people, some people who are younger than I am. I consider them to be my teachers as well.

Miko Lee: [00:37:41] You mentioned your Zen teacher, Tanoue Tenshin Roshi and you quote in the book him saying, the truth is the intersection of everyone’s perspective, if we could only know that. Can you speak more about this?

Norma Wong: [00:37:55] We are, as humans, we’re, we’re very certain that our perspective is the truth, that whatever it is that we see. But even from a biological perspective, science shows that what it is that registers in our mind is only a small portion of what it is that even our biology is absorbing. And so. We have this tendency to have a lens with respect to how we see the world that lens is colored by many things. And so what is actually so is difficult to ascertain. And this is just in terms of what may be right in front of us, let alone that which may come to us on a secondhand basis, and even more complicated by the way people get most of their information these days. Which is not through direct experience, but through information that has been provided by other channels, the vast aspects of social media, for example, the echo chambers of the conversation, in which we take as facts, things that are talked about that have been observed by other people who are analyzing that which someone else may or may not have actually seen by their own eyes. So we’re many times removed from the actual experience of things. And so to know the truth, is a complex thing.

Miko Lee: [00:39:28] As you sort of mentioned this, but it feels like we are living, in this time where there’s multiple truths, and especially with the propaganda that we’re seeing from right wing mindsets that are really resistant to, influence especially around harm, unless they directly experienced that harm. In cases where it feels like this progress is really stalled until those people experience that kind of harm personally, what is the best way for us to intervene constructively?

Norma Wong: [00:39:56] Well, I think the first thing that we have to do is to make sure that we are also not doing the same thing in reverse. You know, which is to say that the aspect of harm, The many impacts that people may feel will be felt differently. So that which I believe has harmed me would seem to you as not being harmful at all. We tend to see harm, not from a meta perspective, but from an individualized perspective. And so to actually come out of the weeds of that and place ourselves In an observer’s stance of community more generally, of humans more generally, not within the analysis of that, not within the frameworks of that, but to observe actual experiences is something that needs to happen on the left and the right and the center. the American. Value system doesn’t help, which is to say that we live in a very individualized society. Our country was formed on the basis of values that are individualized. Even something that we’d say may be universal, such as human rights, we tend to think of it through an individualized lens. And to come more into the whole of it, to not. view our existence as being either dependent or independent of others, but more from the perspective of being interdependent. And you know, by interdependence, I’m, I mean that the success that we may have is born not only of my efforts, but the efforts of others. And if it is at the expense of someone else’s welfare, then it is not interdependent. So that type of existence, you know, which I would describe as a more indigenous way of being, is what our times call for.

Miko Lee: [00:41:55] I’m wondering, you have such an interesting background as working in the legislature here in Hawaii and then fighting for homeland rights, supporting people in Lahaina. I’m wondering how you have combined both your indigenous background and your own. Zen belief system, how that has influenced you politically.

Norma Wong: [00:42:16] Well, if I were to reflect on that question, I would say that I was extraordinarily fortunate to begin my spirit practice at almost the same instant that I was coming up in the political world. And so I. did not see one as separate from the other. In fact, I would say that the fortune of that is that there are many aspects about the introspective nature of spirit work that, you have to interrupt your ego at every instant. And as you might imagine, there are many ways in, in the political world. Where the ego takes on an outsized importance to what it is that you’re doing. And so it’s an important centering value that you would get from the Zen practice. But to me, A thing that attracted me to Zen is that it is almost inherently indigenous and, by that I mean that the Zen values are based on interdependence of the whole and the whole does not only include humans, it includes other beings in the universe itself. And so, to center your political actions and the ways in which you might grapple with an issue is not to separate the issue from the people and the place, and to take into consideration not only the history of that, but what your actions would mean for the descendants that have not yet been born. And in that respect, there’s should be no separation. In fact, there should be a profound way, in which that can hold your political decision making. your political conversation, your political actions within the concepts and the values of people in place.

Miko Lee: [00:44:08] So centering on people and place and our interconnectedness with each other. That’s really powerful and so important and I’m going back to your saying we have to interrupt the ego and I’m wondering in times when we’re about to see 45 enter into his, second administration and the impact of somebody who is ego full or narcissistic and this divide that we’re seeing, how do we hold faith in ourselves to help to interrupt that ego when it’s happening on such a national scale?

Norma Wong: [00:44:41] Well, there’s a thing about ego, which is to say that My ego can only be interrupted by me. Your ego can only be interrupted by you. Now, strategy is a different thing, but that’s not the subject of this interview. But with respect to ego, it’s going to be part of the environment. it’s going to be part of what exists and it’ll be a powerful way in which you would see many egos, playing with each other. That’s going to be a dynamic that will occur. So I would say there’s a lot of work to do. Especially if we know that the construct of government, irrespective of whether this person or another person is holding this job. is in a place of peril and the institutions generally are having difficulty in this moment. Some people, because of who it is that they are and the ego that they have, will supercharge the collapse. In other words, they will increase the momentum of that collapse. And so, in that increase of the momentum of the collapse, there’s a lot going on. To be done to ensure that peoples and communities and places are able to do what may be necessary to effectively sustain themselves and each other in relationship to each other, all of the things that they may have otherwise been dependent on the artificial structure called government. And with respect to ego, for us to understand that we have to have enough healthy ego to believe in our own capacity, to be able to work with each other, to take on this huge task, not only through these next four years, but in a period of time beyond that.

Miko Lee: [00:46:29] And what are some of the practices or frameworks that can help sustain us during this time to come?

Norma Wong: [00:46:35] Certainly the practice of, not running dry, you know, that within every 24 hour cycle, if we are to be at the top of our game, then we have to pay attention to make sure that we have enough rest, that we have the sustenance we need, Remain hydrated. I mean, very simple things to not waste away our time in the internal dialogue that keeps spinning to separate ourselves from the habits that keep us from making decisions that taking on too many things means that no thing that you do will be given the kind of attention that it needs, the kind of focus that it needs. the kind of depth that it requires. And so this is a time of choices, in order to achieve that place of abundance. You cannot have many things on the plate at the same time. So simple choices, with respect to the practices that you have, And once that require the dreaded D word, which is discipline.

Miko Lee: [00:47:43] Mm. One of the things that has arisen a lot within the network that I work in, AACRE, Asian Americans for Civil Rights and Equality, is a lot of folks, especially young folks, are finding themselves in able to have conversation with family members or elders that, have different political viewpoints what is a good way to go about navigating this tension with people who hold really different political and therefore, in their minds, worldviews than you, but you are connected to?

Norma Wong: [00:48:12] Well, it may not be possible to have a political conversation the question is, are you still in relationship? I think that is the primary question. are you able to meet someone’s eyes? Or do you just look away? can you feed each other? I mean, literally, do you know the foods that other people desire or need? Can you make them? Not just buy it and assemble it from the nearest store. Are we tending to each other’s needs? Emotional welfare, are we observant of the ways in which we may be getting into a place of need that we’re not asking support for. It’s like politics should not be. the first conversation you have with someone, it’s like that, the first conversations that you would have with people should be one of relationship and of community, and that if you’re going to slip into that part where you’re going to say, well, because of your politics, I’m going to put you in this room or that room, then the, possibility of us being able to proceed as people is just not going to be possible. The civil rights, as a political movement, succeeded. I believe that as a social change movement, there is still a lot of work to be done. And that we put a little bit too much of a dependence on the wins that we had politically. And then We believed that, because those wins were, that the world would change as a result of that. Hearts and minds were not necessarily changed. And the heart and mind work is the work of community, the work of storytelling, the work of arts, generally. The work of building relationships with people, so that irrespective of the label that they thought that you carry, that you can have a greater understanding of desires and motivations, needs, and ways in which you might be able to be mutually with each other. So we have to start by actually being in relationship with people versus relationship with our ideas. A relationship with points of view and that is something that we may have given short shrift to. And I would say that that’s like a Western kind of thing, like, you know, okay, we’re going to have a meeting and, let’s sit down for a meeting. By the way, we’re not going to spend any time getting to know each other. We want to get directly to. Whatever the point of the meeting happens to be, or in the case of family. You know, it’s like, families are complicated. One of the reasons why families are complicated is because we are in blood relationship to each other and therefore forever bound. But that does not mean that we have actually done the work to get to know each other. It does not mean that at all.

Miko Lee: [00:51:09] Thank you. I’m wondering if you can, talk about how do we hold on to our work as activists, and kind of the ultimate urgency of what’s happening in the world, like I’m thinking specifically, there’s a lot of conversations about the new laws that might happen right after the inauguration . And so there’s a sense of urgency there. How do we hold on to ourselves but balance that with that sense of urgency.

Norma Wong: [00:51:34] Well, I like to put urgency in a slightly different perspective. Which is to say that the urgency that I see is what is the work that needs to be done to ensure that descendants that are not yet born will be able to live the kind of life that I would hope them to have in a world that would be able to sustain that. And if I put that out, as. What is urgent, then that forces me, in a way that I choose into, to pay attention to. Larger stories, larger work, more extensive aspects of work that also require many more people to be engaged in. And, to begin right now, because it’s urgent, you know, for example, if there’s a possibility, That the aquifer will become contaminated, and we do not yet know whether or not that will be the case. Then it’s urgent that we work to make sure that whatever contaminant is in the ground will not get to the aquifer and therefore, we have to work on that right now. And so that which we may advocate for with urgency will be about the things that are going to be required. For the long haul and not just a defensive reactive, type of action, just to attempt to defend the things that are collapsing around us at the moment caught. In a tighter and tighter action reaction, a kind of way in which we make choices and make decisions, which will mean that the urgent work to ensure that the descendants will be able to have a better life in a sustainable place. will not be done and will not done in time for that to occur.

Miko Lee: [00:53:26] Thank you so much, for pulling that sense of urgency out to a broader perspective. It reminds me of that Grace Lee Boggs quote, what time is it on the clock of the world that we’re really thinking about multiple generations and the ancestors to come and not just what the deadline is immediately. Can you talk with us a little bit about the hu, Hu, that you describe in your book?

Norma Wong: [00:53:50] So I think of Hu as, you know, capital H and, small U as like the missing element on the periodic table. Okay. So, you know, the periodic table it contains all of the elements that are supposed to exist in the universe, and I believe that there’s an element called the human quotient. The human quotient is the stuff that humans need to have in order for us to actually evolve as the peoples that we’re intended to be. And that the earth requires so, you know, among the human quotient elements would be courage, for example, courage being that which we do, even in the face of fear. So there’ll be characteristics like that, but even more fundamental than the characteristics, there is whether or not we will access.and hold d center to everything, the collective humanity of who we are and who we need to become. Whether we take that at the center or will we, will we just see people as a series of identities, a series of allegiances to particular flags as keepers and adherence to ideologies. as, generations or genders, will we just see people as categories? And so, this aspect of coming into our humanity, is what I’m referring to as the human quotient. One of the chapters in the book.

Miko Lee: [00:55:27] Thank you so much. Can you tell us what you would love people to understand after reading your book, When No Thing Works?

Norma Wong: [00:55:37] I would want them to understand that the work is a distillation. So it’s very concentrated. It’s like Malolo syrup, a favored concentrated syrup that is essentially the fruit punch of the islands. You have to add water to it in order for you to get it to a place where it can actually bear fruit and it can be delicious for you. And that water is yourself, your own experience, your own practice, your own hopes, your own purposes. And if you add that to the book, then the book will be your Malolo syrup.

Miko Lee: [00:56:17] Oh, that is such a great analogy. I love that you’re talking to it. It’s a syrup. And actually there is a tudy guide or it’s called navigate, but the resource to help people go through the book and have conversations with family and friends, which I think is so lovely. It’s such a great way for people to read the book in community.

Norma Wong: [00:56:37] Yes. The book site is, Normawong.com and, I believe that the Navigate Guide will be available on that site.

Miko Lee: [00:56:46] And I will host a link to all those things on the show notes for Apex Express. Norma Wong, thank you so much for spending time sharing with us about your work. Um, I really appreciate you and the wisdom that you’re sharing for multiple generations. Thank you so much.

Norma Wong: [00:57:04] Thank you, Miko. Thank you so much. Please enjoy your day.

Miko Lee: [00:57:09] You too. And I also want to give a shout out to my amazing friend that introduced me to you, Mariah Rankin Landers, whose book, Do Your Lessons Love Your Students? Creative Education for Social Change really influenced me. And she helped provide some of the context for this conversation. So I thank you to Mariah and thank you for spending time with me, Norma. Please check out our website, kpfa.org. To find out more about our show tonight. We think all of you listeners out there. Keep resisting, keep organizing, keep creating and sharing your visions with the world because your voices are important. APEX Express is created by Miko Lee, Jalena Keane-Lee, Preeti Mangala Shekar, Anuj Vaidya, Swati Rayasam, Aisa Villarosa, Estella Owoimaha-Church, Gabriel Tangloao, Cheryl Truong and Ayame Keane-Lee.

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