#54: Avoid the Friend Zone While Dating, with Magda Kay

Love Is Us: Exploring Relationships and How We Connect

If you're dating, you’ve probably had the experience of being “friend zoned.” And, perhaps, you’re someone who relegates others to the friend zone. Friends are great to have, but if you’re looking for true love, you might want to understand how to avoid this from happening.

In this episode we talk about how to avoid the friend zone. We also talk about boundaries, sexuality, body language, why chemistry can be a red flag, and to bring sexuality into your daily life (trust me, this is a good thing!). I’m glad you’re here!

Biography:

Magda Kay is an intimacy expert, certified Tantra teacher, speaker, and author on a mission to help individuals around the world experience more love, pleasure, and intimacy. For almost a decade, her advice on relationship dynamics has helped countless singles and couples alike live more fulfilling and authentic lives in and outside of the bedroom. With a degree and background in business, Magda has a natural gift for translating esoteric concepts into practical, easy-to-understand ideas so that everyone can enjoy the fulfilling intimate life they deserve.

Magda is the founder of the School of Intimacy, an online academy that teaches people essential skills for building happy, passionate relationships with others and themselves. This year, she published her first book, No more Faking It, a guide for women to living a more fulfilled life. She also works one-on-one with individual clients both online and in person.

How to learn more about Magda:

Website: https://magdakay.com/

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/magdakayofficial/

YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/c/magdakay

How to learn more about Karin:

Website: https://drcalde.com

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/theloveandconnectioncoach/

TRANSCRIPT

Intro:

Karin: This is Love Is Us, Exploring Relationships and How We Connect. I'm your host, Karin Calde. I'll talk with people about how we can strengthen our relationships, explore who we are in those relationships, and experience a greater sense of love and connection with those around us, including ourselves. I have a PhD in clinical Psychology, practiced as a psychologist resident, and after diving into my own healing work, I went back to school and became a coach, helping individuals and couples with their relationships and personal growth. If you want to experience more love in your life and contribute to healing the disconnect so prevalent in our world today, you're in the right place. Welcome to Love Is Us.

Episode:

Hello, everybody. It's February and I am longing for spring. I don't know about you, but it is Valentine's Day week and I thought about doing a special episode for Valentine's Day. But the thing is, every day is Valentine's Day on this podcast because we're always talking about love. So I'm just going to keep going. And today I'm going to be talking to Magda Kay, who is a relationship and intimacy expert. So imagine this. Imagine you're in the dating world and you are seeing someone and you really like them, but then all of a sudden they start dating somebody else and you realize you've been friend zoned. Or perhaps you're a woman and you've been dating men and they're all just too nice to be in a relationship with and you haven't been able to find that true love. So on today's episode, we're going to be talking about this. We're going to be talking about the friend zone and how to avoid it. And this is for men and women. All right, I hope you like it. And here we go. Welcome, Magda.

[02:10] Magda: Wow. Thank you for having me.

[02:12] Karin: I'm really happy to have you here. Thank you for making the time. Tell us where you are in the world.

[02:18] Magda: Well, at the moment, I am in Poland, which is my home country, and it's very, very cold. I'm not used to this anymore because I spent over a decade in Southeast Asia, living in tropics, in fact, on small tropical islands. And then I decided to come back to Europe and it's minus twelve and it's really cold and my body is like, what are you doing, you crazy woman?

[02:44] Karin: What is going on here? Yeah, now that as we're recording this, it's the beginning of January, so I can imagine you must be in the heart of the cold.

[02:56] Magda: I'm handling it.

[02:58] Karin: Good. And what drew you there?

[03:04] Magda: Well, so I am from Poland. I was born and raised here. But you know what? When I was a teenager, my dad went bankrupt, and I just so happened to be doing a high school exchange in the US when that happened. And so I went through this weird association in my mind that Poland equals poverty and all the problems and just all the bad things. And the host family I was staying with in the US, they had this massive house, they took me to Hawai. So I just associated being abroad with a better life. So ever since I was 17 when that happened, ever since, I honestly have been just trying to run away from Poland. And yes, like I said, I spent over a decade in Southeast Asia, which is a lovely place. I lived in Malaysia, Thailand, Bali, but I was feeling more and more that I am missing the western drive. I'm missing being around ambitious people a bit more business and money focused, because I was living in a. We'll get into this. But I was living in a yogic tantric community, which it's a bit know the hippie world, and I was missing this western mindset. So I decided to come back to Europe. But I will be honest with you, discovering that I actually want to stay in Poland, that was a surprise, because, like I said, I spent half of my life trying to escape this country. I still don't really know what this decision is all about. And honestly, it would seem so easy to just, yeah, let me go back home. For me, it is really a big decision. I feel like it's clearing a lot of things. A lot of things, yeah.

[04:46] Karin: Good for you. It sounds like a good growth opportunity for you and an opportunity for self discovery, that is for sure.

[04:53] Magda: Yes.

[04:54] Karin: That's great. Good. Well, tell us what you do.

[04:58] Magda: So I am an intimacy coach. So what I do is I help people have better love and sex life. And my work is about combining tantra with psychology. So, like I said, I lived over a decade in those crazy yogi, tantric conscious communities that are very unique. To be fair, I can just say it was a sex cult, because pretty much it was. But I dove very, very deep into tantric teachings, the teachings of sacred sexuality and yoga and energy work and meditation. But I always loved human behavior. I always loved psychology. So I combine these two words, making it on one hand, making tantra more accessible to an average person in the west. But also what I see is that usually in the west, if you have anyone talk about sexuality and intimacy, these are sexologists, and they have this very medical approach to intimacy. And I feel like we are missing a more subtle, spiritual aspect to it. So I try to blend these two words in my work. So that's what I do.

[06:08] Karin: Beautiful. And what I have been learning is that tantra is not just about sex, it's about so much more. And that's not the focus of our conversation today. But I do want to say that out loud for the people listening, because I think that especially in the US, it's come to be synonymous with sex.

[06:29] Magda: Yes. Unfortunately, I get asked very often, what is tantra? Is it just about sex? And I think tantra is a spiritual path. And like you said, it's so much more than sex. But what happened is the same that happened with yoga. We took this profound, complex spiritual path and we just took one bit of it. And now everyone wears leggings and goes to yoga studios and stretches their body and we call it yoga. That has 8% to do with yoga, maybe. And it's the same with tantra. It's a much more complex path. But our society just took one bit that we're most interested in, which is sex, and we're focusing on that. So unfortunately, if you search Tantra online, a lot of things you're going to get. It's going to be erotic massages and some form of sex work. So I will tell people that, yes, tantra is more than that, but a lot of erotic services use tantra as branding because it's popular now. So just be mindful. When you search for something and for some coaches, just be mindful. You may get some strictly sex offers.

[07:35] Karin: Right. Okay, well, thank you. I appreciate that. Yeah, that's definitely a future topic of conversation on this podcast. But today we're going to be talking a little bit more about the dating world and specifically about something called the friend zone. So maybe you can tell us a little bit about what that is.

[07:59] Magda: Yes. So, you know, when I talk about intimacy, what is intimacy? I always explain it like this. We know what it means to be a friend, and we know what it means to be lovers. But intimacy is somewhere in between these two relationships. So we have the friendship, we have the depth, we have sexuality, but it's this area that not many people talk about, and that is really intimacy. So if you end up being friend zone, you're not in intimacy, you're not in an intimate relationship with the person. You get stuck a little bit out of it because some of it overlaps, but you're kind of not playing the game that you probably want to be playing. And unfortunately, it is a big issue these days because the society has changed a lot. The dating world has changed a lot. There's so many global changes. We let go of gender roles, and we don't yet know what to replace it with. But people feel lost because they don't have a new sort of guideline to follow. We have dating apps, which, if you think of it, it's like a modern way of matchmaking, which we always had, but our society didn't really have matchmaking for a few generations. So now we're just, like, finding ourselves in this dating environment, which is very new, and we don't yet know how to navigate it. We lost a lot of confidence because we're online all the time, and we don't develop social skills the way we used to. We're extremely suppressed sexually. So then you like someone, but all you know is either how to hook up with this person or how to become friends. And so we end up usually on one of these extremes, while what most of us, both men and women, want is that intimate relationship. So friend zone is one of the extremes we fall into when we really want to be in an intimate relationship. That's how I like to look at it.

[09:58] Karin: Oh, that's so interesting. And does it tend to happen to men, women, both? What are you seeing?

[10:04] Magda: So, definitely men have a big problem with this. And I think for many, it's just a different situation because we live in a post me too movement, and men are really afraid of showing their sexuality too much, of showing their desire. It's also really interesting what's been happening to men, because men are expected to be emotional, considerate, basically. They're expected to be more like women, and they don't really know how to be. So men are very, very scared to show desire, to show this animalistic self to women, and so they end up being friend zoned almost all the time. But maybe that's a surprise for some people. But women can get friend zoned just as well. And I think I would have a guess that every woman listening can think of at least one time when she really liked a guy, but she was unable to move from the friendship to something more. And maybe you don't realize, but what happened is that you got friend zone. There is a few things that happened that got you stuck in the dynamic that you don't actually want to be in. So, yes, it does happen to both men and women.

[11:21] Karin: So how does it happen?

[11:23] Magda: So here is what we're doing, and I think both men and women, a lot of it comes down to being afraid of our sexuality, because if you think of it, this is what I tell my couples when I work with them. Sex is the foundation of your relationship because if you take away sex, you have friendship. Right? So I'm not saying this is the only thing that matters and that this is the only thing you need for a good relationship. But the difference between a romantic relationship and a friendship is really the presence of sex. So sex is important, but we feel so uncomfortable talking about sex. We feel uncomfortable flirting, and so we try to connect, but because we don't include the element of sexuality, we end up forming friendship. Now look what's been happening historically. So in the past, women were not allowed to show their sexual desire. Right. We're just like, no, nothing. Me, no, I'm a lady. And men were the leaders. Men would always pursue a woman. Now, that role for men has been changing a lot. A lot. One of them being is that women started saying, hey, there is such a thing as boundaries and consent, so maybe don't be so pushy. So then men stop pursuing women sexually to the degree that it used to be. But women, we haven't fully stepped into our position of expressing our sexuality. So now you have these two people kind of like. So who should kind of bring the sexuality into this conversation, and no one does because both people now are uncomfortable. That's kind of how it happens.

[13:04] Karin: So we don't know how to initiate.

[13:06] Magda: Yes. And by this, I don't mean sex. By the way, when I say sexuality, I do not mean sex. I don't mean about jumping into the bed with each other. I mean allowing that sexual energy to flow between you and. You guys know what I'm talking about, right? It's this chemistry, this tension, the polarity. You feel that, like, when you're with someone, you don't just want to feel comfortable and happy and joyful. You want to feel a bit of the tension. You want to be, like, teasing each other, building this anticipation of something. And that requires a lot of confidence. These are proper flirting skills that a lot of us just don't have anymore because we communicate via these little computers that we all have in our bag. So we kind of lost the art and then. Exactly. We try to flirt and we just end up being friendly. So we're missing that ability to flirt in a more sexual way to bring the tension that is really what puts both men and women into the friend zone on a bigger scale, of course. And then there are specific things we say and we do that don't support us.

[14:18] Karin: Do you think it's mostly an unconscious thing that happens or do you think that people are deliberately thing, you know, they're not a mate for me, they're a friend.

[14:28] Magda: Okay, this is a bit tricky. You know what? Because if you think of dating, sometimes you meet someone and you're not really sure how you feel, and so you just go ahead and you want to see, will this evolve into something more or not? And I think one of the difficulties here is that we don't have strict boundaries, that this is just friendship, this is just a relationship. That's how we have friends with benefits. That's what I was looking for, right? When suddenly the boundaries of these different relationships, they kind of blend. So I don't think it's necessarily intentional, but there will be cases when it absolutely is. And I've done this when I met a guy and I see that he's into me and I see that he's flirting and I just feel uncomfortable and I don't want it. I'll do a few things to very clearly establish that this is just friendship. So I think it's both.

[15:23] Karin: What are those things that send that message?

[15:28] Magda: Well, okay, I'm going to tell you just a story first. That's just something that came to my mind because what are the things that we say? Because you never know how it's going to be interpreted. So many years ago, when I was living in Milan, that was already in the phase. When I was running away from Poland, I moved to Milan, Italy. And many years ago, I used to party and drink. At that time, I don't now. So we're out in a club and I was done. I was ready to go home. So I'm sitting in a chair with my jacket, waiting for my friend to get her thing so we can go home. So I'm sitting there and there's a chair next to me, and I see this guy coming up to me. And Italians especially can be like a lot. So I see he's approaching me and I'm just like, oh, goodness. Just, no, I'm not reacting, right? He sits next to me, I'm not reacting. And he's trying to pick up a conversation. And I just like, I don't really answer. I just say, like, yes, no, that's it, right? And then he says, I like such mysterious women. I'm not trying to be mysterious.

[16:38] Karin: Trying to send you a message.

[16:41] Magda: So I will say that our intention of communicating something may not necessarily be the same thing that's being received by the other person.

[16:52] Karin: Right.

[16:52] Magda: Things that I usually try to do is I would maybe speak about a guy that I like. I will be very careful not to talk about sex, nudity, or nothing of that sort. So there are just, like, certain conversations that are off topic. I'll keep a bit more physical distance from the person. I'm naturally pretty touchy, very affectionate. So I'm just like, okay, I need to be mindful here. And to be fair, when I meet with these people, I try to dress in a bit more conservative way. I love summer dresses that show my back and everything, but I may just be a bit extra careful how I dress when I meet with someone that I am not interested in, just so they don't think that I'm making a special effort for them. Usually that would be for me. Stay away from the conversations about sex and nudity. Dress in a bit of a modest way, and I would often just mention some other guy that I like. But again, some men may consider this green flags. And, yes, she's into me, so. Right, I can't be responsible for.

[17:58] Karin: But it sounds like you're trying to be careful about the messages that you send in those cases.

[18:03] Magda: Yes. And I think you know something that I would say that is easy, probably, to recognize. If you want to, like, you got to want to look for signs, not like this guy who thought I was just being flirty with him because I didn't want to answer his question. If you tune into the other person, you can see how comfortable they feel. Is their body and their energy open and towards you, or are they slightly shut down and trying to find a bit more space between you? If you pay attention to the person, you can say it. You can feel it. So am I opening myself to you? Right. Like, is my chest moving towards you, or am I trying to shut down a little bit and pull away? So reading the body and reading the energy honestly is the best. So I just say, try to do this, because, again, we may do something, we may say things, and we may really mean totally different things.

[18:58] Karin: Yeah, and I agree with that. Body language is so important, and I think that once people learn a little bit more about that, it becomes easier to figure out if someone is interested in you.

[19:12] Magda: Yes. And it's a skill. So maybe for now, it just seems, like, impossible to do because these are subtle moves in the body. But like you said, if you practice, you will pick it up pretty fast, because this is unconscious, and it's a natural skill that we have. Just like, we can read emotions based on a person's facial expression. There's actually parts in the brain that are responsible for that. So you're built to recognize whether a person is open or if they're contracted. It's just about bringing back sensitivity to that awareness.

[19:49] Karin: Tuning in? Yeah, absolutely. So in talking about the friend zone, so it sounds like you're seeing a lot of women relegating male partners to the friend zone lately.

[20:06] Magda: Yes.

[20:07] Karin: So it seems a little bit like self sabotaging behavior.

[20:11] Magda: Or is it? Look, I will say this with a lot of shifts in the dating world, I do understand as a woman that for many women, the kind of a partner we want, it may be difficult to find it. So then you're meeting guys, and they're nice, they're fun, and you would be happily, like, you'd happily hang out with them and be friends, but you wouldn't necessarily want to date them. And I have quite a few male friends like this. They're incredible human beings. I love them, but if I was to date them, I would go crazy because they have commitment issues. They don't know how to communicate. I hear them talk about women they date. I was like, I would not want to be one of them. So in some cases, this is just a smart move for a woman that she chooses to keep him as a friend instead of going into a relationship. But I think in some cases, we do it as a form of protecting ourselves because we're so scared. And if you think of this to be really good friends with someone, you need to trust this person. Like, friendships last often longer than our intimate relationships. We're not talking about acquaintances, we're talking about proper friends. So you have this level of intimacy that I think if you were to take it into an intimate relationship, you're, like, going all the way because you already have this deep friendship. Now you're going to add sexuality. You're just being fully vulnerable, open and raw. And that is really scary. It's much easier to be sexual with someone without that deep friendship because you're still hiding parts of yourself. So you're protecting yourself. But having that deep, honest, true friendship and sexuality, that's the most vulnerable, the most honest place you can be in. And I think that sometimes when a woman feels very comfortable with a man and she is afraid to go the intimate path, so she's like, you know what? We're so good, so let's just make it a friendship. We're good here because she's afraid to go deeper. So I would say that happens too. And of course, the question is, which of the two is it in each of the situations. And I'd say this, if what he says about women seems disrespectful and you're like, gosh, this guy has issues. You're happy to friend zone him, but if the way he speaks about women is respectful and considerate and loving, maybe give him a chance. That would be my advice.

[22:53] Karin: And I think that's good advice because I also talk with women who say, well, but there's just not that chemistry. And I always tell women that that can be a red flag. Chemistry is not necessarily a sign that this is good. It can be just a repeat of old stuff and old patterns that you're trying to work out. So chemistry is not the test.

[23:17] Magda: Yes. And, you know, I'm someone with a more anxious attachment style. I come from a rather unbalanced, I would just say childhood emotionally unbalanced. Lots ups and lots of downs. And so, yeah, I was one of those women really chasing that chemistry and excitement and what it finally occurred to me after getting burned a lot, that that's not a good thing. And I realized that, oh, my God, in the past, I was waiting for the butterflies in my stomach. So that chemistry that you say, and if I feel it, I'm like, okay, let's explore it. And then I'm thinking now I'm just like, wow. I never even asked myself if this is a good man, if he has certain personality traits that I want. I never actually analyzed whether it's a decent person to be with. I was just, well, there is chemistry. So that's definitely a new thing. And I'll tell you, since we're talking about friends, I recently met a guy, and we became friends. Now he happens to be married, so he's a no go in any case. But I wasn't interested in him when we met. He just seemed like a really cool person to hang out with. So we've been spending time together, and he's not someone that I would be normally physically attracted to, but we're spending a lot of time together, and I'm realizing what a cool person he is. And I was actually messaging my bestie some time ago, saying, you know what? I could see myself becoming attracted to him. Now we're not going there, because, again, he is a family. But if he was single, maybe I would allow myself to feel more into that and who knows what would happen? So, yes, like you say, that chemistry, you don't need it at first. You probably don't want it to be very intense because it usually means it's a trauma bond. But a lot of it can really just show up over time. It doesn't have to show up in the first week or two.

[25:15] Karin: Yes, exactly. So what about for men? How can they avoid this?

[25:22] Magda: So the most important thing for men, I would say, is to don't be afraid to upset a woman. So men want to be nice, they want to be polite and respectful. And so if a woman asks for something, I do it. And when a man does that, a woman stops respecting you because she's like, oh, well, he's going to do whatever I want, okay, so I'm just going to use him. And a woman starts using a man so deep inside. And that's actually true for both men and women. Deep inside, we're just kids. And what do kids do? Well, kids want to see what can I get away with? How much can I push to still get what I want? And when is my mommy or daddy going to say no? And so kids test the boundaries. We all have that kid inside of us. So when we meet someone, especially in a romantic relationship, we're trying our luck. We're seeing how much can I push? How much can I get away with?

[26:24] Karin: What are the boundaries exactly?

[26:27] Magda: And so women, we all do this to each other, both. So then imagine a woman is playing this game with a guy and he never says no. So she's like, oh, I can use him more and use him more and use him more. And eventually he's not a man to her anymore. He's like either an ATM or a punching bag or like the quotation, like a friend, like a gay friend that every woman wants to have, which is basically having a male perspective, but make sure nothing ever happens between us. And he ends up being stuck in that role because he allowed that. So if she is playing a game of a kid, you as a man, you have to step up into adult role so that she can step up as well. Because an intimate relationship can only exist at the level of two adults. If she's playing a game that kids play, you're not going to be intimate, you're not going to have chemistry. This is also why you get friend zone, right? Because she doesn't look at you as a sexual partner anymore. Because her psychology, psychologically, she stepped down into being a child again. So the most important thing for men is to just tell a woman no. Now when I say say no to a woman, I don't mean be rude, I don't mean like play some power games. It's not that it's a loving boundary. It's a loving? No, you just, hey, no, this is not okay for me, or I'm not willing to do it. That's too much for me. Just like, be loving, be gentle, but say no, and you'll see that she will start looking at you as an adult, as a man, and she will respect you more. That is essential for a sexual romantic relationship to happen. If she doesn't respect you, you guys are not going to be intimate. It will never happen. So the first, most important thing is for her to respect you and for her to respect you, you got to be able to say no to a woman. Yes, she may be upset because she wants something, but you have to be okay with that. That sometimes you're going to upset her. It's not on purpose. You're not hurting her. You're just taking care of yourself. That is absolutely essential for men.

[28:37] Karin: Yeah. There's so much I want to say about this, and this, I think, is so important for all of our relationships.

[28:44] Magda: Right.

[28:46] Karin: We teach people how to treat us by our boundaries. Yes, this is okay. Yes, this is not okay. So I think that is so important and such a great thing to talk about. But I also imagine that this is really hard for the nice guy.

[29:06] Magda: Yes. I mean, it's hard for all nice people.

[29:11] Karin: Yes. People pleasers, people that don't want to upset the cart or risk the relationship or risk being rejected. Right. Or they're repeating a pattern with perhaps their caregivers.

[29:28] Magda: Yes. And I have so much compassion for that because that is my story. I'm still learning to speak up and say something when it crosses my boundaries. And it's not easy. Whether it's business, friendship, relationships, I know it's not easy. I'll tell you a story when I.

[29:47] Karin: Okay.

[29:48] Magda: There are two things that kind of started shifting and helping me. So the first one was when I was living in this small, tantric yogic community. So we're talking, really, it's like a village. Everyone knows each other. And I was dating this guy, and then we had a fallout. And honestly, he was just like, I don't know what happened, but he just blew up out of nowhere. And I messaged him saying, like, hey, the things you said yesterday, I understand you were upset, but I don't think it was okay that you projected and threw it at me. And, oh, my God. Then I got a long message, like, just attacking me in so many weird ways. And I was like, okay, clearly I was checking with my friends. I'm like, what do I do? And they said, look, he's clearly wanting to fight with you. There's nothing you can respond. Whatever you respond, he's going to just keep fighting. So just, like, just stop. And so I was thinking, okay, we live in this small community where everyone knows each other, and right now he's really triggered. I don't know what I did, but he's really triggered, and he's really angry at me, and there's nothing I can do. And I am pretty sure he's going to tell some of his friends about me, whatever his version of the situation is. And I will not get a chance to give my story. So there will be people that I will be meeting around, meeting for coffee or whatever, sitting in a yoga shala, and they will be in a class with me, and they may look at me and they may not like me. And it was the first time when I was like, I can't do anything about this, but, oh, my God, someone doesn't like me because I always wanted to be liked by everyone. Yeah, that was a very powerful moment for me. So if you have anyone that you kind of argued with or whatever, like something happened and you know they're angry at you, just sit with that. I know it's uncomfortable, but just sit with the fact that right now there is someone who doesn't like me. And then the second thing that helped me, there's this book, I think it's called the Sexual practices of Kodoshka. I think that's the full title of the book, but it talks about a tribe that apparently used to exist. So we're talking about some shamanic practices and philosophy, and in shamanic tribes, in shamanic spirituality, you usually split the world into four. So you have four directions, you have four elements, and so on. And so they're talking about relationships, human relationships. And again, they have a circle divided into four equal parts, like everything else in life. And that circle was divided like this. People who like me, people who love me, people who don't like me, people who hate me. And I was shocked because I was like, wait, so it's all going to be equal? Like, there will always be people who don't like me, and there will always be people who hate me because I was always trying to just fill the whole circle with people who like me and love me. Here you're telling me that. No. Statistically, one fourth of the planet is not meant to like me, and one fourth of this planet is meant to really dislike me, and only half of the planet is meant to like me or love me. So I was like, oh, okay. So statistically, some people will not like me. And for me, these two stories, these two instances, they really help me accept a bit more the fact that sometimes I will upset someone and be okay with that. So again, I have a lot of compassion for people pleasers because I'm a recovering one. And I hope that these two stories will help.

[33:27] Karin: Yeah, I think that's really great to understand that it's not going to be about you. Usually it's really about people's own stuff. But I love that helping you to really come to this place of acceptance, that this is just how the world works and it's okay because there's also those people that do love you.

[33:52] Magda: Exactly. And I will say this. You know what? Sometimes I think we either end up being friend zone or we put someone in the friend zone just because a person didn't speak up about the boundary. Because maybe I meet a guy and there are a few things that I'm not really happy about, and I would like them to be a bit different because they bother me a lot, but because I'm unable to speak about that thing, I'm just like, you know what? It would never work out. Let's just be friends. Because when you're friends, it's so much easier to avoid things. Right. If there's something that this person does that I don't like, I can just avoid them. Or suddenly, for like a month, maybe I just don't meet with you because, oh, I'm busy with work, so there's more space to create distance from the person in a friendship that there is in an intimate relationship, especially if you live together, you can just disappear and not talk to a person. So I think sometimes we may end up friend zoning someone who would be good for us just because we're afraid to speak up. And again, I can get friend zone. Whether I'm a man or a woman, I can get friend zone because I don't set those boundaries. So I think boundaries, like lack of boundaries, really kill a lot of potentially good relationships. Yeah.

[35:04] Karin: Okay. So boundaries is one thing, and it also sounds like it's a way to avoid conflict because we are so conflict averse.

[35:14] Magda: Yes.

[35:15] Karin: And we're afraid of it. We don't realize that it actually can be an opportunity to grow closer and grow our relationship. Right.

[35:25] Magda: I would say you're probably an expert on this because having been with someone for long, you had to navigate a lot of conflict. I think at first we may try to avoid it, but at some point you're like, yeah, I don't think I can do like ten years never pointing this out.

[35:41] Karin: Right, exactly. So what is something else that men can do to avoid this? Do you have other suggestions?

[35:49] Magda: Yes. And honestly, the same advice goes for women. Because remember, sometimes women can end up being friend zone as well, we don't think. Because we're like, what, I'm a woman, every man just wants to sleep with me. And then you realize, oh, no, he wants to sleep with the other woman. So this is for everyone. It's to bring a bit more sexuality in. Now, what I mean by this is it's not about being direct. Like, sexuality doesn't like being direct. It likes little games and teasing, the whole seduction game. It's meant to be playful, it's not meant to be obvious. So that's what I mean by bringing sexuality in. It's not to say, hey, want to have sex? No, absolutely not. But there are like a little things you can do to imply sexuality that really sets the tone differently than just having like a friendly coffee or friendly dinner. So first is the body movement. So especially for women, when you're sitting there, you can just play either with your hair, you can play with your neck. Like just touch your neck gently, or your chest, your cleavage, you can play with your wrist or your forearm, just gently touch yourself. He definitely is going to notice and he will start thinking about touching you. So this is definitely good. But for a man as well, pay attention to how you sit. Make sure that your body screams confidence. So open your chest, make your chest bigger. We have this. Pop your chest up, all of that.

[37:26] Karin: And if people could see us, we're both opening up our bodies and spreading our legs and our arms and taking up space, right?

[37:34] Magda: But that basically sends the message, I'm confident, look at me. When you're just friends, notice that you don't try to show off physically with your friends. You're very comfortable with friends. So you can even slunge in chair and just be kind of small. And you don't care about having your spine straight. But when you want to impress someone, notice you immediately sit or stand differently. So make sure that's how you sit in front of each other, both men and women. So that's the body. Of course, how you dress makes a difference. So show some skin. What does it mean for a woman? I personally love showing my back. I just really like it. But anything that shows just a bit of skin. Now don't overdo it again. Leave some to imagination, but don't be fully covered. Like turtleneck and like, well, you get to see my hand, and that's it. So don't be afraid to show a little bit of your skin. And same goes for a man. A man can open his collar. That's actually very sexy. Very, very sexy. And you can also pull your sleeves up so that your forearms show. But let there be some skin showing. This is a very subtle, subconscious way of messaging, like implying sexuality, but it works. The brain picks it up. So these are subtle ways that work perfectly.

[38:55] Karin: And I just wanted to interject that a lot of times we do these things without even realizing we're doing them. It's just that we like them and we naturally then do these things.

[39:06] Magda: But not everyone so much.

[39:08] Karin: Yes, but not everyone does. And sometimes we need a little bit of education around it so that we understand that that's how we send those messages.

[39:22] Magda: Yes. And I'd say for me, the best secret to good flirting is to have fun. People just make flirting so serious. I'm just like, forget about any end goals. Just have fun with the person. So for me to sit there and play with my body, play with my hero, touch my wrist a little bit, what I'm really doing is I'm playing with myself. I'm enjoying this. I could be sitting at a table by myself and I would still enjoy doing this. So I'm having fun with myself. That's why it works as a flirting technique. But if you feel very uncomfortable with your own body and your own feelings, like your own pleasure and sensations, you won't be able to do it. So your kind of homework is to be home and even to anyone listening. Now, if you're in a private space, just play with your forearm. Men and women, like, touch your, you know, scratch your head, play with your hurt, touch your body. And notice that this is actually nice and it's not overly sexual. It can be very subtle, very natural, but it really works. It makes a difference.

[40:27] Karin: Yeah, you're transmitting something for sure.

[40:30] Magda: Yes. So these two things, like showing a bit of skin, touching your body, playing with your body. I think it's really good. And then, honestly, I'll say this is a bit more traditional. I am personally traditional, but for a man, I'd say pay. When you go out on a date, just pay. Unless you're going for, like, really fancy restaurants. But if you like her, then take her for coffee so that it's not an issue that you're paying, it's just a few dollars. But show an element of providing for her so that you are establishing a dynamic that you're the provider, you're the leader, and she is the receiver. And honestly, this can be a small gesture if you open the door for her to enter a taxi, something like that, drive her home to make sure that she's safe. Those little, little things here is why you want to do it, because if you don't do them, likely you're going to get friend zone. Now, there are some women who don't like it, but I say this still. The relationships that work the best are the ones where we have this polarity of masculine feminine energies, where a man still gets to feel like I'm a man because I can help her and assist her, and a man in exchange needs to be appreciated for that. So that dynamic still seems to work the best. So if it was a woman and she thinks that it's disrespectful for you to open the door or pay for her coffee, I'd say, yeah, she has some things to look at because how can this be disrespectful? You're just doing a little gesture for her. Like, if my friend wants to pay for my coffee, I don't get offended. I don't think you don't like me anymore because you just offered to pay for my coffee. Oh my God, the friendship is over. I'm like, oh, wow, thank you so much. Next time I'm going to get you a coffee. Right? We appreciate those little gestures. So I'd say for any man who's afraid here, it's much better for you to upset a woman who would feel offended by you getting her a coffee than upsetting a woman who wants you to get her a coffee. I'd say do a few little gestures because for many women, if you don't do it, you end up friend zone right away. Because women still, many, many women still want this. A bit more traditional gentleman who does these little things. You wanted to say something before.

[43:01] Karin: I think that that's where so much confusion has come in in recent years with dating is men don't know, am I supposed to hold the door?

[43:12] Magda: Should I pay?

[43:14] Karin: And I think that there's a lot of confusion, but I think that it's probably safest to go ahead and do those things. And if you had a few dates, you can also talk about it. How does that make you feel, especially when it comes to splitting the check? Because I have no problem with people deciding, especially on a first date, to split the check, if that's what both of them are comfortable with. But I also think it's fine if both of them would rather the man take the lead in that way.

[43:45] Magda: So something that I personally recommend that a man can say, especially if you're a man who likes providing. Here's the sentence that I think is just brilliant. Let's say you're out for coffee, you're getting this coffee, and you can say this. I know you can get this coffee yourself, but it would be my pleasure to get it for you.

[44:08] Karin: So nice.

[44:08] Magda: So what you're saying is that you are acknowledging that she can do it, but you say, I'm doing it for myself. So it's not because I want to disrespect you, because I think you can. No, it would be my pleasure. It would bring me pleasure to get you coffee, period. And then if she has an issue with that, then run away.

[44:28] Karin: Oh, I love that. I think that's really respectful. Yeah, maybe that's it. It just feels very respectful and kind.

[44:38] Magda: I'm thinking, what else with the tips? So we had, okay, show some skin. Touch your body. I would say, yeah, for a man, provide the little things, but also for a woman, make sure that you receive. So polarity has to happen on both. You know, I'm from eastern Europe. We're kind of more traditional in that aspect. So I definitely love when a man offers to pay, does the little things, but I always make it a point to appreciate it. So I never take it for granted. I never look at it as, like, you have to do it because you're a man. Absolutely not. And it's not okay. And I always tell men, when you pay for a woman, when you provide, watch her reaction, because you also don't want to be used by a woman. And there are many women just, like, just wanting to use a man for money. So in a way, protect yourself. So watch how she reacts. And so here is the advice for a woman. If you don't want to get friend zoned, make sure that you receive his gift with appreciation, because that is a lot of the sexual polarity. It's about that. So if you think of it at the level of sex a man is giving, like physically, he is the one entering a woman and thrusting. And also he gives his semen a woman receives. So this is the sexual polarity. So that's why when we play it out in daily situations, it can stimulate our sexuality because it's very similar. But then a woman needs to receive it instead. If he gets me a coffee and I say like, oh, no, let me get it, then I'm deflecting his gift. So it's basically saying, I want to penetrate you. And I'm saying, no, I will penetrate you. Not sexy. So as a woman, also, if you want to make sure you're perceived in the sexual way as well, make sure you receive him. If he chooses to do it, he wants to do it. Trust me. Right? He wants to do it, especially the first few dates. So just receive it. Be grateful.

[46:38] Karin: So interesting. If there's one thing that you'd like people listening to walk away with after listening to this conversation, what would it be? What would that key thing be?

[46:49] Magda: Okay, I'm going to add a little metaphor first. I know it's not a sexy metaphor, but I think it really illustrates the point. The way we look at sexuality is imagine you have a house, and there is this one room that maybe at the beginning you were entering a bit more often than now, but now you spend most of your time in your living room, maybe the kitchen, and sometimes you visit this room, but it's like a separate room, and life happens somewhere else in the house. That's how we look at sex and sexuality. We think it's just like this separate compartment in our life. Instead, what sexuality truly is. It's the floor of the whole house, because it's the foundation. This is why we got to expand the definition of sexuality and go beyond sex. But how would you live your life if your sexuality was the foundation of everything? You feeling alive? You feeling that I'm a sexual being? If that was the foundation in everything you do? Because that's, again, what's missing in dating these days. That's why people end up being friend zone. What if you just started bringing this energy in? And remember, bringing this energy in doesn't mean that you are having sex with people. That's not that you can easily bring this energy into your workplace as well. It's about having a bit more fun, allowing this energy to flow through you. And when the sexual energy flows through you, you're actually having more fun in life. So my main intention with all the clients and what I want to leave you guys with is just allow your sexuality to be a constant part of your life. Don't treat it like a room that you sometimes enter and then the door is closed. Let it enter your life. No matter what you do, you're a sexual being. You come from sexuality. That's how we survive. Sexual energy is the creative force. It's life itself. Sexuality is what literally gives life. So as long as you're alive, you're made of this energy. So start tapping into it, feeling it, and using it.

[49:02] Karin: I love that. And, yeah, I love that you said how sexuality is this creative force, and it is such a life force. So I appreciate that. Thank you. So what role does love play in the work that you do?

[49:23] Magda: Well, everything I do is to help people feel more loved. That's about my clients. And my friend once, he said that I have the best job in the world because I help people fall in love with themselves. And I love that. It's not my quote, but I so want to steal it. It's beautiful. Yeah. So it's literally the core. But I'll add something else. I personally get so much love from that work. Of course, I love what I do. I'm pretty sure you can relate to this. So I loving what you do, but because I talk about love with my clients, I get to have incredible intimacy with my clients because we talk about deep things. My clients are not just any clients. The relationships we form, they're so deep. People just open their heart. They're open their soul to me. Especially if I work with a couple, they invite me into their sacred container. Gosh, this is so humbling. So there's so much love and intimacy in my work in all of these different aspects. I love it. Like, I am surrounded by love because of the work that I do. And I don't know. I honestly do think I'm the luckiest person in the world.

[50:39] Karin: Yeah, I share that. I share that. And I do feel like it's such an honor when people do share this, such a personal, intimate part of their lives with me. So I agree. Yeah. So how can people learn more about you and about working with you?

[50:57] Magda: So you can search online on any platform you're at. Search for Magda K. It's K-A-Y. So you can find my website, magdak.com, where you can read more about various services that I offer. I have a lot of courses, online courses. I have the school of intimacy, which is an online academy to really become a master of love and sex. I have a book is for women called no more faking it. But then I am very, very active on YouTube. I have a pretty beautiful big channel with weekly videos and Instagram. I'm very active on Instagram. So I would love to connect with you guys there as well. So I think these will be the main two channels. If you want to get a lot of free content, then I would say YouTube and Instagram. That would be the best place to connect with me.

[51:46] Karin: Great. And I'll put all of that in the show notes as well.

[51:50] Magda: Thank you.

[51:50] Karin: Yes, Magda, thank you so much for joining me. This has really been a joy. I've enjoyed this so much.

[51:56] Magda: Oh, me too. So, so much.

Outro:

[51:59] Karin: Thanks for joining us today on Love is us. If you liked the show and think others would enjoy it, I'd really appreciate it if you left me a review. You can also sign up for my weekly newsletter where you'll get tips about relationships and personal growth by going to my website, drcalde.com. That's drcalde.com. I make it easy to sign up and easy to cancel at any time. Special thanks to Tim Gorman for my music, Aly Shaw for my artwork, and Ross Burdick for tech and editing assistance. Again, I'm so glad you joined us today because the best way to bring more love into your life and into the world is to be love. The best way to be love is to love yourself and those around you. Let's learn and be inspired together.