09 | You Can’t Be Lazy If You Want To Make Really Good Art with Terry Hart

Through The Creative Door

Dive into the dynamic world of creativity with host Alexis Naylor as she sits down with Terry Hart, a Melbourne to Perth producer, mixer, composer and creative writer.

Terry shares his fascinating journey navigating the intricate balance between technical prowess and emotional resonance in creative spaces. From his experience at Melbourne’s Sing Sing Studios to his own space, Terry has spent many years honing his craft as a producer and as a session player and explores the challenges and triumphs of being on both sides.

From the pitfalls of over-reliance on technology to the power of experimentation and authenticity, Terry's wisdom offers a roadmap for unlocking one's creative potential. Talk about inspiring!

Whether you're a seasoned artist or an aspiring creator, this episode of 'Through the Creative Door' promises to inspire and enlighten you, inviting you to embark on your own journey of artistic discovery.

If you’d like to see more of, you can follow Terry on instagram @maestroman

This episode was recorded on 22 November 2023 on the lands of the Wajuk Peoples. We hope that this episode inspires you as a creative person and as a human being.

Thanks for listening, catch you on the next episode.

Psst! We are always on the lookout for creative people to share their story and inspire others. Have you got someone in mind who would love to have a chat? Get in contact with us via Instagram @throughthecreativedoor

Creative references from Terry:

Course: The Sound Academy - Simon Moro www.academyofaudio.edu.au

Let’s get social:

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/throughthecreativedoor/

TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@ttcdpodcast

CREDITS

Created and Hosted by Alexis Naylor

Music by Alexis Naylor & Ruby Miguel

Edited and Produced by Ruby Miguel

—---------------------------

00:08 - Alexis (Host)

Hi, my name is Alexis Naylor and I am your host here at Through the Creative Door. On behalf of myself and my guests, I would like to acknowledge the traditional owners and custodians on which this podcast is recorded and produced. We pay our respects to all First Nations people and acknowledge Elders, past and present. On this podcast, I will be chatting to an array of creative guests, getting a glimpse into their worlds and having some honest and inspiring conversations along the way. Welcome to Through the Creative Door.

Hello, how you going?

00:52 - Terry (Guest)

I’m good.

00:54 - Alexis (Host)

Nice to have you here

00:58 - Terry (Guest)

Thank for inviting me

01:00 - Alexis (Host)

Thanks for letting me come into your creative space. Yeah, that's all right. I am so chuffed that you said yes to chatting with me because, I mean, I was an admirer of yours from afar before I even met you, before we even got to record and do things together. And then that was many moons ago. And now you're suddenly from the east coast over on the west coast.

01:16 - Terry (Guest)

I came here for you,

01:20 - Alexis (Host)

Oh, stop it! Well, well, now we'll have to book all these things in and we'll have to do lots of projects together. Yes!

01:24 - Terry (Guest)

Can't wait

01:27 - Alexis (Host)

I'm so excited. But thank you so much for coming on through the creative door. I wanted to have a chat to you because one you are just a multi-talented human being and have a brilliant mind and I'm curious, obviously you've graced me with the ability to come into your studio that you have here, but also the assumption that this is the only creative space that you have is probably not correct.

01:53 - Terry (Guest)

Well at the moment kind of is. I'm new to town so this is what I've got.

02:00 - Alexis (Host)

You brought it with you. But what does a creative space mean to you? Do you think?

02:10 - Terry (Guest)

It's a very hard thing to get right and I've worked in lots of different studios over the years and the gear, the bits and pieces it's all great, but they're all tools to do a job. One of the things that a lot of studios fail in is what you're talking about is a creative space, um. One I used to work out a lot in Melbourne was Sing Sing studios and that always felt like a home. Kai and Jude that ran. It felt like like this amazing aunt and uncle and they're always there to take care of you and there was always this really good vibe.

02:38

The rest of it's kind of superfluous if you're not comfortable to to create to make things um, especially when you're recording, because that's a that's a high. Comfortable to to create to make things um, especially when you're recording, because that's a that's a high um stress environment. You know a lot of people have saved for years to have a recording studio for a week. So you have to perform and um I know you've been there you jump on stage. If you're stressed it doesn't work like you really need to be in the right headspace to perform. So having a space that does that and allows you to do that, allows you to get into like uh, you know, like a flow state and really, um, enjoy the creation process, is is it's it's owed a lot more credit than it probably gets credit for so true, though, because I have definitely been in spaces over the years where, yeah, it was.

03:26 - Alexis (Host)

I mean, you just walk in and there's a particular energy and suddenly, yeah, everything that you do is like under a microscope.

03:35 - Terry (Guest)

And that's probably not good. No, like that cold, that sterile thing.

03:41 - Alexis (Host)

And you wonder why you can't perform in a particular. It's like oh, I had this yesterday.

03:49 - Terry (Guest)

Yeah, yeah, I can't do it. Had it yesterday. You've probably played it a hundred times on stage and had it, but, like when it matters, where we at, where's it gone?

03:55 - Alexis (Host)

Yeah, no, that's very true. That's very true. I'm curious. I mean, you have worked on so many projects, but you've also done a lot yourself, personally. I wonder and this is such a loaded and difficult question to ask but is there one bit of work or a body of work that you're most proud of today?

04:19 - Alexis (Host)

I can work backwards. I can say I love making music, but I hate making my own music because it's a very lonely process. I like getting to the end. I am so intrigued about this, do tell me more what?

04:29 - Terry (Guest)

I work with bands and I get them in there. I try to give them this experience and they they say they want something and I have to try to figure out exactly what that is and get them there and things will break and things won't go wrong. And I keep that to myself and I figure out how to do that to make sure that they get that really positive experience. So we're talking about like the vibe in the studio, that homely feel and you're always nice and comfortable. I don't get that when I do my own stuff. It's just I'm filled in all the issues and trying to be creative. So I find it really really, really difficult and as far as I know, I'm not alone with that a lot of people who try to do a similar thing. It's a very difficult thing to balance.

05:14 - Alexis (Host)

Yeah, that's so true. Do you think that, will you always be having that hat on when you're in the studio doing your own, or could you potentially

05:29 - Terry (Guest)

Yeah, I haven't yet. Usually, when I've been doing my own stuff, it's been um after hours and just sort of I've got a bit, I've got a moment, so let's, let's give it a go.

05:39

I hadn't got. I haven't gone to the lengths of sort of investing in that side of things, because there's a saying in my industry you got to decide which side of the glass you're on, and I did make my decision 10, 15 years ago. And, and I love producing music and and living in studios and being up to the wee hours trying to create something. Doesn't mean that I don't want to occasionally just just sneak across to the other side of the glass and see what's going on.

06:08 - Alexis (Host)

Well, that, I'm sure, was your first love.

06:13 - Terry (Guest)

Yes, yeah, that's what. I started off as a session musician. So I was on the other side of the glass playing, you know, piano and guitars and backing vocals and then violins and things like that on records when whatever people needed. That's how I got my foot in the door. But then, yeah, learn to love the rest of it slowly.

06:31 - Alexis (Host)

We've spoken about something that you're proud of, but I also think on the on the flip side of that, do you think that there's been anything that has challenged you in creating or helping create a product with others?

06:46 - Terry (Guest)

Again, there's always technical issues, but it's mostly communication. I think you'd find that most artists don't 100% know what they want and a lot of people see that as like a bad thing. But it's not. It is a like they know what they don't like more to as opposed to what they do. So that makes it a very difficult journey. So communication is always the biggest challenge, to try to figure that out, because it'd be great if you sit in the studio and go, okay, we've got this song, let's do a folk version, let's do a thrash metal version, let's do a, you know, an industrial rock version. Try everything and see which one works. But that's not very practical when it comes down to budgets and things like that. So getting into their heads, with obscure questions, you know I've been mixing for people and I've asked them like, if you were listening to this song, do you think it's orange or blue, like anything like that. It sounds silly but it kind of.

07:44

It makes them think in an abstract form and it gives you something abstract to work from and that stuff can really hel, so communication is really always the challenge in the job because you're trying to translate a vision from nothing, which is it's an endlessly complicated job if you're actually trying to do it by chance.

08:08 - Alexis (Host)

Would you have any advice? Is there things that you, if you could say to someone coming in, like before you come in? Maybe think of this kind of descriptive words or reference tracks.

08:24 - Terry (Guest)

I do often. Yeah, I'll send like a questionnaire, especially if I get, if I get a sense of the project um, certain jobs, I'll sit with the bands in the rehearsal studio and we'll really nut it out. We might be doing that for months by the time we go into the studio, and usually by then and I do say usually, sometimes sometimes not at all, but usually by then we're on the same page. You've got a pretty good idea of what's going on. But otherwise those questions can be really helpful. Also, no musician ever wants to be asked what genre is your music. No artist wants to be asked that.

08:59 - Alexis (Host)

So funny. I hate that question. Why do we all still ask this?

09:02 - Terry (Guest)

Because we don't want to think like we're making something in the box. Otherwise, why would you be an artist? If we wanted to work like in the box, we'd go be a merchant banker and just call it a day.

09:13 - Alexis (Host)

So true, but why do we all still ask that question?

09:17 - Terry (Guest)

That's the thing. It's not about trying to make something like that, it's just like a guide in light. It tells me a lot if you want to make like a uh, independent sounding pop thing like Sia. I know you don't want to be Sia, but if you told me that it would just give me this world of palettes to open up in as far as instruments and things, um, it's just. It's just helping us do the job. So my best piece of advice is when somebody asks you that question, it's not, it's not a blight, it's literally because we're trying to help you.

09:49 - Alexis (Host)

You're like yeah, I'm helping my brothers and sisters out

09:55 - Terry (Guest)

And I'm no better, if somebody asks me what genre my music is, I'll tell them to get out. There's the door.

10:00 - Alexis (Host)

I don't know if this is going to be the right question to ask. We'll see. I feel like you're going to have lots of answers for this one, but is there any object or thing that you can't live without when you're creating?

10:24 - Terry (Guest)

Honestly probably my dog. Yeah, yeah.

10:31 - Alexis (Host)

Well, I mean for those people on the, you know listening. I got a lovely welcome when I came today from your beautiful dog.

10:39 - Terry (Guest)

You're probably still sodden from licks and things like that.

10:45 - Alexis (Host)

Yeah, I got all of the kisses. No, I love that. Do you think, especially because you're in this space, in the studio, for long periods of time and working on things for so long, yeah, do you think that is like? I think, like a, not a prerequisite, but a very healthy

11:05 - Terry (Guest)

No, but something like that. It goes back to what we were talking about before with the studios that I've seen at work are not the sterile clean line things, they're the ones that have got that homely feel. Now I've taken my dog to an insane number of sessions and I've seen this little ball of fluff, sort of devour, the negativity in the room, and sometimes there's arguments, sometimes there's confrontations between band members or whomever, and the dog's really, really good at breaking that down and bringing, like it's, a positive vibe in the studio. If you're looking for that, there's not really a better advocate for that. But look, I do. I make music for myself, for others, I work as a novelist, a writer, a fair bit as well. She's the only common denominator and I love having her around like, yeah, whether it has any difference, I don't know.

11:56 - Alexis (Host)

I love that. She's the support dog for everybody. Yeah, exactly.

12:01 - Terry (Guest)

I've seen it work. I swear.

12:02 - Alexis (Host)

What else do you do with your writing?

12:06 - Terry (Guest)

I've been doing creative writing for a good like you know, getting close to 10 years now. I used to write for magazines and things mostly about audio gear and things like that reviews but always had a passion for that, so I've been nutting out of that. I released one novel but I've been working on a bunch and just seeing what I can get to wear at the moment. I just really enjoy the process of that. I released one novel but I'm just I've been working on a bunch and just seeing what I can get to wear at the moment. I just really enjoy the process of that and it's different for me.

12:34

Um, there's a bit of pressure because of what I do. If I wanted to make music, I love making music, but when I make my own it's hard for me to get out of that. That's a whole new Avenue for me. Like I'll admit to you now I do like being creative. I might have a little bit of a soft spot for it, but that's like a nice outlet for me which isn't what I'd call my profession, at least not at the moment.

13:05 - Alexis (Host)

But I think if we've got that little spark of creativity in us, it manifests in so many different ways.

13:11 - Terry (Guest)

Oh, I don't think it matters. Yeah, got that little spark of creativity in us. Yeah, like, yeah, yeah, if you, if you, you can, either um tap into that flow state or you can't, but where you take it doesn't matter. Yeah, um, the rest of it's uh, a matter of practicg getting good at whatever you're doing. It, um, yeah, but it's, it's a great, it's a great outlet and allows me to get that uh, to get into that state and uh and also be vulnerable.

13:32

There was a time there was a long time there that I was making records for other people and I did very, very little for myself and it's very easy to get, um, maybe jaded or maybe just a little bit loose sight of what the creative process is. Didn't mean I wasn't good at the job, but what it did mean is it made it hard to sympathize with the artist. So if I have something like that, I can kind of be there, be vulnerable, know what it means to someone when they give you criticism. Um, you know constructive criticism, but still know that that's it still is going to hit you in a certain way because you really are bearing yourself and being very vulnerable and, um, I think doing that on on the side makes me a lot better at at uh, yeah, just listening to what an artist has to say and respecting it, because, um, it can be hard, um to to really be there 100% and sympathise with people you work with, but, yeah, it's helpful for that.

14:34 - Alexis (Host)

But also for yourself, as in it's multifaceted how it gives back and feeds back into you as a creative.

14:42 - Terry (Guest)

Yeah, yeah, I'm definitely only speaking in a sense of what I do here, but I love doing it.

14:50 - Alexis (Host)

If you could give a nugget or a piece of advice to another creative, what would it be?

14:57 - Terry (Guest)

Oh, that's a hard one, get a dog, I guess.

15:01 - Alexis (Host)

Get a dog. I'll write that down, yeah.

15:04 - Terry (Guest)

The first thing that comes to mind is technology is not your friend and it's made so many things convenient, but it's also really pushed people's heads a little bit out of what's important, and it really is. If you can sit there with an acoustic guitar and make another human being cry with a song you made, that's all that matters. So there's a tendency to want to get into the studio and mess with sounds, and when I say studio, I mean people have.

15:33

it's remarkable what people can do on their laptops you know, but jumping into that too soon and forgetting about the rest of it, because those endless choices have meant that people actually make less choices. Generally, the choices are kind of almost made on their behalf with a lot of the software

15:48 - Alexis (Host)

To try and keep into a particular aesthetic or sound.

15:58 - Terry (Guest)

Yeah things like it can be as simple as tempo. They just oh well, I will start, I'm going to start writing this song and they put their click on and put a drum beat you know, an artificial drum beat down, but then that artificial drum beat won't have swing. So they lose the idea that that song, the way they were playing the acoustic guitar, did have a tiny amount of swing. They don't have a, you know, and so your drummer's not going to hear that and react to that. And suddenly you've written this different song.

16:21

It's so easy to lose the tiny little details that make something special. Um, so cause I, because I see a lot of. I'd have a lot of students when I did a lot of sessions back in Melbourne and they'd say bring a piece of gear up it's just like a program plug-in, say for a compressor or something and they'll mess with the knobs and try to make this sound work, even though it's not really working. And they've got endless different ones that a click of a button, but then they stick on one and get stuck on it.

16:56

Now, when I was working on huge analog studios, I'd listen to something that wasn't right. I'd walk all the way over to the other end of the thing, pull out the wires that had patched it in, plug in new wires and try a new thing, like that was just a habit you had. Yeah, now it's easier to do that today than it's ever been. It's a click of a button and people do it less. So it's kind of. Technology is very good at making people lazy, but you can't be lazy if you want to make really good art.

17:23 - Alexis (Host)

Oh, my goodness. That's so true.

17:26 - Terry (Guest)

And you've been in the studio a fair bit, I'm sure you've been in those situations. Have you ever sat there looking for a synth sound to fill in a thing and you're just going through preset after preset after preset just trying to find that sound?

17:38 - Alexis (Host)

Yes.

17:41 - Terry (Guest)

It kind of. At some point you're just like a scene through time. You don't even know what's going on, right, you get that kind of moment where you lose that, yeah, yeah you lose space time context yeah, yeah, and it's overwhelming.

17:54 - Alexis (Host)

And I'll be honest, like I don't have trained ears like you, so like for me, sometimes they all. Then suddenly all just I don't even know where I am. They all sound the same they just start blurring. Yeah, they're all blurring, whereas I think your ears would be far more in tuned for longer to be able to hear the finite difference between but even a lot of times, it just doesn't matter yeah.

18:22 - Terry (Guest)

The big thing: is you're not making music to make it to like, you're not writing a song to find the perfect canvas for a perfect synth sound. You're looking for a synth sound to express a certain emotional state. That's all music is. It's a cathartic experience. People listen to it to feel something. So if you start listening to those synths and saying which one sounds like, my partner just left me. If that's what your song is about, you know it sounds. But um, that's a big part of what, what, what happens in these places there's. You get a bunch of sounds together. There's a little bit of work to make a snare drum sound like a snare drum, an acoustic guitar sound like an acoustic guitar. Once that's done, you've just kind of hit the bass line of beginning the. Then you've got to start to make the acoustic guitar sound like it's been hurt by some trauma or it wants to dance or it's, you know, whatever, whatever.

19:18 - Alexis (Host)

Whatever the emotion is that we're trying to portray.

19:22 - Terry (Guest)

I need a thesaurus, I'm bragging about being a creative writer and I can't even think of more than two emotions. Like how are we going here?

19:29 - Alexis (Host)

We need to watch that movie. It has all the emotions.

19:32 - Terry (Guest)

Yes, that would be a great idea. It wasn't the elementals. I know the one you're talking about. Pixar right, yeah, Pixar, Pixar for the win always.

19:38 - Alexis (Host)

That's so true. No, I, it's all about sometimes finding that balance of, like, stripping it every back, stripping it all back to, yeah, the fundamentals, for sure, um, and yeah, it's lovely to have toys, it's lovely to have, yes, like you said, an opportunity to create in that particular way, but it should be supporting the message or the, the thing that we're trying to.

20:12 - Terry (Guest)

Yeah, yeah absolutely yeah, and that that's the only thing to keep in mind, that it is supporting that um and that's the question just to keep asking yourself.

20:21

Paul Mccartney put it really well. He said um, he was talking, I think, specifically about backing vocals. Okay, but I think it works across the board for production. Um, he said that, um, if it's not adding, it's taking away. So you can put in endless vocal harmonies if you want, but you just listen to it and go. Is that adding? And if it's not, if you can barely hear it or whatever, just scrap it, it's probably taking away then. Yeah, it's a good mentality and a good thing to keep in mind in every decision you do. Because, yeah, we can get into the studio and decide that we're going to spend half a day on finding the perfect snare drum I've got 40 snare drums here. We're going to find the one that really suits this song but if in that time, the whole band just loses energy and can no longer be bothered even performing the song and are tired and are hungry, then snare drum sound didn't really matter at t that point you know you've got nothing

21:22 - Alexis (Host)

It's not really going to uh, put the electric energy back into everyone yeah, yeah yes, we found the sound . Would you, is there any resources or, like I don't know, books or courses or something like if you, if someone was wanting to um, do what you do? Is there there anything that you know, good resources that you would suggest?

21:56 - Terry (Guest)

There's kind of endless resources. I know a mate of mine, Simon Morrow, in Melbourne, he's doing an online course for music production and he and I talk a lot about music production. He's got a great ear for that, so I trust what he's saying in that. But, at the same point, youtube is filled with things you want to figure out how to patch a hole in the wall. It's got you covered.

22:24

It's not much different with music production. There's a lot of bits and pieces on that, but it's the same as anything. Sure, it's not sponsored and, um, in the sense that you're kind of getting an honest review, not just a sponsor, um, you know someone talking about something to get kickbacks or whatever, but there's probably, whatever issue you're having, there's probably a, a youtube video dedicated to that. So it's a great place to start. But, more than anything, if you are getting into this, your ears are the only thing that matters, and your ears get worse over time in many ways, not better. When you don't really know what things are doing, you just listen to them for what they are, and that's a good time to really be in the studio and mess around and experiment.

23:17

If you want to do it, you have to be a mad scientist type in the sense that you should sit there with an acoustic guitarist for a day and every mic you can get your hands on and every preamp and every different mic setup you can think of, because there's not a right one and often there's not a wrong one, but it's knowing what gets you what results and how it changes moving things around and how that can work to your advantage, because it's kind of the UK style of record making, where you have a sound and it may not be perfect, but then your next sound tries to make that sound perfect.

23:58

So you might put a piano sound in and you close mic'd it and it's a bit of a tinny kind of clanky sound. There's no room to it, it's impersonal. It's like oh okay, now we could go back into the studio and get a beautiful C5 grand piano and do it properly, or we can just take that and we wanted to put an acoustic guitar in anyway. Let's not close mic the acoustic, let's put a mic across the room from it and get a bit of natural room and ambience to it. Then suddenly you have this contrasting clanky piano sound with this beautiful sweepy acoustic sound and you're starting to get a sound stage.

24:37

You know, that's why, not just knowing a way to do things, but all the ways you can do things and experimenting. You can know how you can manipulate these sounds to really put things together and start to build something. Because a song and music's really music when you start to hear into it, because it kind of messes with you. It pulls you in, but then in being pulled into the song, you're actually inside the vocalist thing because they're they're always up front and centre, you're kind of really being drawn towards them. Yeah, it's a trick, you might be pulled towards the acoustic guitar, but you are leaning in and that's body language, that's telling, you're telling you, telling yourself that you are actually coming towards it.

25:17 - Alexis (Host)

Yes, yes, yeah.

25:19 - Terry (Guest)

Yeah, but yeah, like getting into this is really experimenting as much as you can and um there, there is no right answer um to things. So when you start looking, if you want to start looking at YouTube videos, just understand that it's an opinion and it might be useful to you and it might lead you astray as well.

25:44 - Alexis (Host)

just go down that rabbit hole.

25:48 - Terry (Guest)

It is going to be a rabbit hole, but so is anything that's worth doing, you know.

25:50 - Alexis (Host)

If there was another creative that you could ask these questions and have them on the podcast. Who would you want to know these things about, and why?

26:02 - Terry (Guest)

Oh look, I always love to hear from artists, because that really is where all this begins and ends. So I mean anyone who's doing those things, anyone that's making music that's really, really works, you know on another level, and speaks to you a bit more than just that face value. I'm always ready and fascinated to hear what they have to say.

26:26 - Alexis (Host)

And no, it is interesting thing where we can be so similar and then so totally different all at the same time.

26:36 - Terry (Guest)

That's the beautiful thing about it. It's supposed to represent humanity and we are all a little bit nutty in our own way.

26:45 - Alexis (Host)

Yes, we are well, I know I am anyway.

26:48 - Terry (Guest)

I wouldn't hold you to that that.

26:54 - Alexis (Host)

Thank you very much. Terry Hart. Thank you so much for coming on Through The Creative Door.

26:57 - Terry (Guest)

So nice chatting with you yeah, no, thank you, you too, yay, cheers.