Episode 274 – Unstoppable Holistic Communication Consultant and Coach with Tina Bakehouse

Unstoppable Mindset

As Unstoppable Mindset regular listeners know I have been a keynote public speaker for 22 and a half years. I love it when I get to have a conversation with coaches and experts whose specialty is to help all of us communicate and converse better. Tina Bakehouse, our guest this time, takes communication coaching to a whole new level. As she says, her process is a holistic one. Even as a child in rural Iowa Tina liked to perform and tell stories. As she grew she sharpened her skills. She has received two bachelors degrees and a Master’s degree as well. All are in one way or another concerned with communications and performing. Tina brings her knowledge of the theater and on-stage performing to her work helping leaders and others to learn how better to connect with their colleagues and others around them. We talk a great deal about good and effective communications. Lots of good advice and many good suggestions and ideas will be found in our episode this time. Tina offers concepts that can help anyone wishing to communicate and connect better with those around them. About the Guest: Protecting audiences from boring speakers and speeches, Tina Bakehouse has started her own company, Tina B LLC, to provide holistic communication consulting and coaching to help heart-centered leaders and organizations internationally and nationally to communicate more effectively. Tina is a published author of the book Discovering Our Magnetic Speaker Within. With more than 20 years of teaching communication and theatre (10 years as an instructor at Creighton University), a former Walt Disney Cast Member, Leadership Iowa participant, and TEDx speaker and coach, Tina is passionate about educating others to become more self-aware and enhance their authentic speaker style through transformational workshops in improvisation, storytelling, temperament, and communication. After earning two BAs from the University of Northern Iowa, one in communication studies and psychology, and the second in theatre and English teaching, she completed a master’s degree in communication studies from the University of Nebraska-Omaha along with certificates in Advanced Professional Writing, Keirsey’s Temperament theory, Holistic Coaching, and four levels of improvisation training. Her past positions have included Malvern Bank’s Chief Creative Officer, assisting with community development and coordinating financial literacy and educational opportunities for Mills County and Golden Hills RC & D as Outreach & Communication Coordinator, promoting the arts and local foods in southwest Iowa. Tina has performed and coordinated multiple storytelling shows in southwest Iowa, including two teen shows. She continues to use her creativity, leadership, and passion for the arts to help people communicate effectively and solve problems. Tina lives at Maple Edge Farm, a 150-year old family farm in southwest Iowa, with her husband Jon and son Anderson and her beloved dog Shyla. Protecting audiences from boring speakers and speeches, Tina B. has more than 20 years of teaching communication and theatre (10 years at Creighton University), a former Disney Cast Member, Leadership Iowa participant, and TEDx speaker and coach, Tina is passionate about others becoming more self-aware and enhancing their speaker style through transformational workshops in improvisation, storytelling, temperament, and communication including clients Practical Farmers of Iowa, First National Bank, FEDx, Children's Hospital, and many more. She's earned 2 BAs from the UNI in communication studies and psychology and theatre and English teaching and a master’s degree in communication studies from the UNOmaha. Certificates include: Advanced Professional Writing, Keirsey’s Temperament theory, Holistic Coaching, 4 Levels of Improvisation. Tina has published a book with Manuscripts Publishing: Discovering Our Magnetic Speaker Within with Manuscripts Publishing. Her past positions have included Malvern Bank’s Chief Creative Officer, Golden Hills RC&D, and Omaha Steaks. Ways to connect with Tina: Website: https://www.tinabakehouse.com/ LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/tinabakehouse/ Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/TinaB.LLC Youtube channel: https://www.facebook.com/TinaB.LLC About the Host: Michael Hingson is a New York Times best-selling author, international lecturer, and Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe. Michael, blind since birth, survived the 9/11 attacks with the help of his guide dog Roselle. This story is the subject of his best-selling book, Thunder Dog. Michael gives over 100 presentations around the world each year speaking to influential groups such as Exxon Mobile, AT&T, Federal Express, Scripps College, Rutgers University, Children’s Hospital, and the American Red Cross just to name a few. He is Ambassador for the National Braille Literacy Campaign for the National Federation of the Blind and also serves as Ambassador for the American Humane Association’s 2012 Hero Dog Awards. https://michaelhingson.com https://www.facebook.com/michael.hingson.author.speaker/ https://twitter.com/mhingson https://www.youtube.com/user/mhingson https://www.linkedin.com/in/michaelhingson/ accessiBe Links https://accessibe.com/ https://www.youtube.com/c/accessiBe https://www.linkedin.com/company/accessibe/mycompany/ https://www.facebook.com/accessibe/ Thanks for listening! Thanks so much for listening to our podcast! If you enjoyed this episode and think that others could benefit from listening, please share it using the social media buttons on this page. Do you have some feedback or questions about this episode? Leave a comment in the section below! Subscribe to the podcast If you would like to get automatic updates of new podcast episodes, you can subscribe to the podcast on Apple Podcasts or Stitcher. You can subscribe in your favorite podcast app. You can also support our podcast through our tip jar https://tips.pinecast.com/jar/unstoppable-mindset . Leave us an Apple Podcasts review Ratings and reviews from our listeners are extremely valuable to us and greatly appreciated. They help our podcast rank higher on Apple Podcasts, which exposes our show to more awesome listeners like you. If you have a minute, please leave an honest review on Apple Podcasts. Transcription Notes: Michael Hingson ** 00:00 Access Cast and accessiBe Initiative presents Unstoppable Mindset. The podcast where inclusion, diversity and the unexpected meet. Hi, I'm Michael Hingson, Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe and the author of the number one New York Times bestselling book, Thunder dog, the story of a blind man, his guide dog and the triumph of trust. Thanks for joining me on my podcast as we explore our own blinding fears of inclusion unacceptance and our resistance to change. We will discover the idea that no matter the situation, or the people we encounter, our own fears, and prejudices often are our strongest barriers to moving forward. The unstoppable mindset podcast is sponsored by accessiBe, that's a c c e s s i capital B e. Visit www.accessibe.com to learn how you can make your website accessible for persons with disabilities. And to help make the internet fully inclusive by the year 2025. Glad you dropped by we're happy to meet you and to have you here with us. Michael Hingson ** 01:21 Well, hello and welcome to another episode of unstoppable mindset, where inclusion diversity and the unexpected meet. You've heard that before, but the unexpected is what's the most fun about this podcast, because it has everything to do with anything except inclusion and diversity. So we get to do that today. Anyway. I'm really glad you're here, and really appreciate you taking the time. Tina Bakehouse is our guest today, and Tina, welcome to unstoppable mindset. Tina Bakehouse ** 01:49 Well, Michael, thank you so much for having me here. Michael Hingson ** 01:51 Now, I was reading Tina's bio, and I don't want to give too much away, because it'll be fun to talk about all of it, but one of the things that she starts her bio by saying is that she's involved in protecting audiences from boring speakers and speeches. And I'm really anxious to talk about that. I have heard some very boring speeches in my time. Oh, I don't even dare mention names, but I've heard some speeches that were really boring, which is which is no fun. But let's start this way. I love to begin by asking if you could tell us kind of about the early Tina growing up and all that sort of stuff. Tina Bakehouse ** 02:31 Sure, Michael, I was this little farm kid who grew up in southwest Iowa, and my front porch of this farmhouse became my proscenium stage, and I loved to rope my younger brother and sister into a wide range of performances. We would do little radio talk shows on my Fisher Price, you know, tape recorder, old fashioned style with those little tapes, as well as create scripted performances for my parents' anniversary every year, do dinner theaters and things like that. And I just found this love for the spoken word and for performance. And as I evolved and grew into a young teen, I was part of speech competitions as well as community theater, did the high school musicals and all kinds of experiences of that nature, and went to college and pursued a communication studies and psychology degree. And during that time, I really became fascinated with the idea of, how do we talk to each other, listen to each other, show up in various contexts to connect with each other, because communication is about connection. And I really found love with tapping into learning more about how people work, non verbally, as well as verbally and what really hooks people, because as a child, I loved a great story. I was a humongous fan of Jim Henson and the Muppets, and I always was fascinated how they created story on The Muppet Show and entertain in such a fun, creative way. And that's the power of our voices, is that we can draw people in, and we can bring them to their feet and inspire, motivate action, or we can connect with one another, and in a way, that's a beautiful dance of conversation, and that's that's what I really love doing, and what I found in my journey is guiding people on that, that path of tapping into their inner magnetism, because we all have that ability to communicate with confidence and clarity. So I love the teaching piece. Yes, Michael Hingson ** 05:00 wow, you have said stuff that opens up so many questions, but we'll, we'll try to get to a bunch of them, but I agree with you, and communication is really all about connection, and unfortunately, it cuts both ways, where people connect and and just go by, whatever they go by, and they don't analyze, or sometimes they analyze. But, you know, how do we how do we deal in our world today? You know, I don't like to talk about politics, but leaving out the politics of it, how do we deal with our world today? And I guess it goes back to the beginning of elections ever you've got politicians who say, trust me, and so many people do, and they just look at what the person or listen to what the person says, but never really analyze, and that's a dangerous thing to do. But the people are the politicians are communicating well enough that they just get people to connect. How do we deal with that? Well, Tina Bakehouse ** 06:05 I think it goes way, way back to Aristotle's logos, pathos and ethos. In every communication context, there's an a target audience, there's an occasion for what people expect to happen, and the context affects and impacts the content. And so asking yourself in terms of logos, that's tapping into the logic of content and researching, getting that background information and being aware if you're speaking at a conference, or if you're going into a networking event. Or, if you are a politician, it's acknowledging speaking to that given geographic area, that demographic, and doing your research ahead of time. That's the logos piece. That ethos is the credibility of really getting the ethical of showing up in truth. And you mentioned, you know, saying, trust me, trust me. Well, that's on you as the speaker, to be full of integrity and to say what you mean and mean what you say, and you do so with consistency of showing up and being in your being. And the final piece is the pathos. It's that emotional appeal of really speaking from the heart. It's that balance we can get very heady. And I think in today's world, it's maybe even a challenge to tap into the heart, because we we can argue with each other, not meet each other in the middle. And I think if, if we can find, and I've found this in my experience, is do what intuitive abraham hicks talks about, and that is segment intending, and you set an intention prior to the communication and be with yourself Like have self awareness, because communication intelligence, or even conversational intelligence, comes from self awareness of Do you regulate your emotions appropriately? How do you think about the upcoming audience, the event, the content of your message? Because if you don't sit with that prior, you're going to influence and impact how the message lands, it may not land at all. And so I would say really being self aware first, because that will ground you. And once you get grounded into your own energy and awareness of the situation, then you can meet the other where they are. But you're right. We're in challenging times where we tend to have conversations with people that have the same belief system, and I've really been of a mindset in the last while, just to get curious and ask questions. I remember years ago when I was traveling in the Serengeti and had the opportunity to meet this beautiful doctor who had been practicing medicine for many, many years, and he was in his 80s and still practicing medicine, and he was from South Africa, and he would, just as this year, adite, he would share and bestow upon me so much knowledge, information and expertise. And as we were saying our goodbyes, he I asked him for advice. At the time, I was a professor at a university, I said, What should I tell my students in this communication class? What advice do you have? And he said, Tina, always be curious and always ask good questions for that's never failed me in 50 years plus of practicing medicine. So if we get compassionately curious about the other and know that they have their own experiences in story that's going to influence how our influence with how we communicate. And Michael Hingson ** 09:48 I absolutely buy that, and I subscribe to it. It just seems to me, and I read about it often today, we have so many people who. Just seem to have lost or never had the art of conversation, and they don't want to converse. How do we deal with that? Tina Bakehouse ** 10:09 That is a challenge, absolutely. You know, obviously we don't have control over someone else's choices, right, their behavior, and so it's meeting the audience or the other where they are. And so that could be a person who's more of a closed communicator, where they might be more focused on systems and working with things and being with things, not people, or they may have they're blocked because of some negative experience we simply don't know. Yeah, and again, it's meeting them where they are. So for example, I've encountered closed communicators before, and so I really just observe first, instead of just coming into their little bubble, non verbally, and break through that bubble. The theater person in me has learned very quickly the the pandemic gave us that six feet bubble, which I think is actually important before you break through. That is approach with compassion, because some people are not comfortable with that, and just observe and be with that person first, and maybe just ask a question and see where it lands. Tune into their nonverbal cues. Tune into their paralanguage as as their tone of voice. And if they're terse with you, it which can happen, I think it's, it's acknowledging, you know, thank you for even this time, and being you know, full of appreciation for who they are and be okay with maybe it's not the right time, and you're capitalizing on a hard time for that person. Maybe make a request, like, Hey, I'd be interested in having a conversation. Maybe it's the wrong channel, a phone call would be better. Or maybe it's just a direct exchange via email, which they would be more comfortable with in terms of they just have severe social anxiety. So it's first, observe, listen, notice more, and meet them where they are, and get and get into being okay with that they may not want to have a conversation, and you simply can't control because all communication has a sender and receiver, and it's a two way street. And so sometimes you have to, if you're going the wrong way on a one way, you got to turn around and say, you know, thank you, and be of good peace, centered energy, and move move forward. Michael Hingson ** 12:35 Yeah, it is. It is so difficult. I think a lot of the whole issue with the art of conversation today, especially when you're dealing with the political world and so on, is that so many of us are locked into attitudes and our own positions to the point where there's no room To discuss or to even consider giving an inch, and we really need to get away from that. It doesn't mean that we need to change our opinion, but it's really more about listening than it is about conversing absolutely Tina Bakehouse ** 13:14 and just from from communication theory, converting someone and their belief system takes multiple multiple multiple communications, and generally that may not even their belief system. So absolutely, I think that's a great point. Michael is meeting them where they are, and being open to engaging in discourse with someone who has a very different perspective and ask those questions and listen and really listen, yeah, Michael Hingson ** 13:46 and I think that's really the issue for me personally, going back to being curious, I love to talk to people who have different viewpoints than mine, and I would hope at least when I'm conversing and talking, my goal isn't to convert. I don't think that should be my job. If, if I say something that causes somebody to think differently, that's fine, but my goal is to listen and learn and understand. And I think that's what we really need to see more in the world. And you know, some people really don't care about the facts, and it's, it's amazing, but that's not my choice. Tina Bakehouse ** 14:28 Well, right there, there are high elaborators and low elaborators. It's the elaboration likelihood model that was created, I believe, in the 80s. And so you're high elaborators Are those individuals that really extract content and message, and they focus on content more so than the delivery style. Low elaborators Focus on delivery style. So we have more low elaborators in the United States and world, I would say that get impact. Very much tuned into how the person delivers with their tone of voice, with their charisma that draws people in. And with that being said, I think it's really crucial to be aware that, because we have this distinct way in which we choose to listen that everybody. It's so empowering if they, if we, people just want to be seen, they just want to be heard. They want to have a voice and be comprehended in a way that they are authentically who they are, not trying to be anybody else. And that could be different than you, and that's okay, yeah, Michael Hingson ** 15:37 and it, and it should be, I think it's so much fun to have conversations. As I said, I love to learn, and very frankly, that's what I get to do on all of these podcasts. And as I tell people, if I'm not learning at least as much as anybody else, I'm not doing my job very well, because I want to really learn a lot of things you you talked about the you talked about the Muppets before, and I can't help it. I'm gonna have to spring one thing, and that is, I remember the original Muppet Movie. And there was at one point when somebody, and I can't remember which Muppet it was, said something like, I am just beside myself. And this real quick. And it took me several times at watching the movie to hear the response, which was, yeah, and how did the two of you live with each other? It was just something that happened so fast that they're just so they were so and, you know, those who do it still are so creative, Tina Bakehouse ** 16:30 absolutely and witty and timely and really just good natured, which it's refreshing, Michael Hingson ** 16:39 and it's just so much fun, Tina Bakehouse ** 16:41 absolutely, I mean, I was grateful, because that was my era of my childhood, to have updated movies in their in 2011 and I believe even a year or two past that, where they had actors with the Muppets again. And it was just playful and fun and delightful and physical comedy, fun, self deprecating comedy that was not, you know, hateful or mean, which was very, very refreshing. Michael Hingson ** 17:12 No, Miss piggy's mean. Tina Bakehouse ** 17:17 No, she's not, she's Michael Hingson ** 17:19 not mean, she's not. Mean, do you ever watch 60 minutes? Tina Bakehouse ** 17:24 I don't. I have not. I mean, I did years ago, every once while with my parents, but I haven't for years and years, Michael Hingson ** 17:32 one my favorite 60 minutes of all time, and I'd love to get a copy of it. Had morally safer interviewing Miss Piggy. Oh, funny. Well, yeah, let's just say the interview really went the other way. She was just on him. It was so funny. She got him speechless. She kept calling him Morty instead of Morley, and just all sorts of it was absolutely the most hilarious Muppet, or well, our Miss Piggy thing I've ever seen, she was great. I was she Tina Bakehouse ** 18:04 should be on 60 minutes. Yeah? They just play with language, they have fun, and they're just in the moment. They're in that improvised, fully present moment. Yeah, Michael Hingson ** 18:14 well, tell me a little bit about your your thoughts about being a speaker and rescuing audiences from boring speakers and so on. What are some of the big mistakes you think that most speakers make, or that a lot of speakers may? I don't want to say most speakers. I won't be a stereotype soul, but what do you what do you think are the mistakes that speakers make that make them so boring to people? Tina Bakehouse ** 18:41 Well, I think more times than not, we're very egocentric. We think the speech is about ourselves. And I think that that is a false, false mindset. And in the process of writing and publishing my book, discovering our magnetic speaker within I worked with and communicated with a wide range of speakers whom I actually witnessed magnetism. One keynote speaker and an actual Communication Coach mentioned, it's about serving your audience. If you show up, all about them, it's a we thing. And I, even with the title of my book, I did get some critique on Well, why don't you have discovering your magnetic speaker within as the title? Well, it's not a your thing. It's an our thing. If you, if you give a speech and no one's choosing to listen, did it ever really happen? And it depends on an audience. So I would say that that's the number one faux pas in I've been guilty occasionally This too is and I've had to shake myself out of it is okay. It's doing that audience analysis and really focusing in on what does this audience need to. Know, want to know, and what did they know already, and start with what they know and build into the new information and that foundationally assist in your preparation for a given presentation. So I would say some mistakes. The first one is that the speaker makes it about them and not a service or serving the audience. So being audience centered is essential. It's the foundation to be magnetic and to be engaging. A second mistake is that, and I'm going to go back to the self, that we tend to have an inflated view of how good we are as speakers. So that comes from lack of preparation. Some people just show up. And there are gifted speakers that have a heart centered space, and they can maybe do very light to little preparation. But by and large, people have a warped perception of how good they are. It's sort of like, how, if I were to ask you, how fast can you run a mile? It's very measurable. You can say, you know, whether or not you could do it in 10 minutes or less. But if I said, Are you an effective magnetic speaker? Well, that's very abstract. So we we really and I even think audiences, they know it when they feel it, and feelings are so abstract. And think of all the different energies that are within and composed in an audience that, you know, everybody has different experiences, different perceptions, etc. So that's the other piece, another mistake. And finally, I would say, in addition to, you know, the audience centeredness and the the Warped perception, or unclear perception of our abilities, is, again, a big mistake, is not being flexible in the moment and being aware of, well, if, especially when you're facilitating a workshop, I really tune into what does the audience need in this moment? And so I have a foundational, prepared, two hour workshop, but it looks feels differently for each given audience because of what I get from them. It's it's like a tennis match, it's a back and forth dance, and so being flexible and even being able to refer to a previous speaker, if you're a keynote speaker in a given conference and you've heard the other speakers, I think that that can really impact and it's engaging with story and balancing that with data. So that's the biggest one, is think about the audience. Think about the self, and think about the content that you embed, the story, Michael Hingson ** 22:49 one of the well, when I, when I give a speech and and I've done certainly, bunches of them, and I can tell the same story. People always want to hear about the World Trade Center. But what happens is I believe that I don't talk to an audience ever. I believe I talk with an audience. I think that's extremely important, and when I am giving a speech, I do know that there are certain things that I can say that I've learned to believe should probably get specific kinds of reactions from the audience, and when I say a particular thing, I can tell whether I'm connecting with the audience or Not, and I have absolutely changed on the fly. But again, I can tell the same story, but the intonations and other aspects of it may be totally different for one audience from another or over another, and I think that's extremely important, because my job is to connect with the audience. And you're right. I want to really understand them, know what they want, know what they need. I love whenever I'm going to speak somewhere is to go and hear other speakers who speak before me. I don't mind doing the opening speech, and I've done that before, but I love to speak later, because I get to learn more about the audiences and learn so much from them. But I do believe that it's all about talking with the audience. They have to be part of it. Tina Bakehouse ** 24:30 Oh, absolutely, I love that you bring that up. In fact, I've, I've said that to so many clients. Do you want to be a presenter or a communicator so you can either present at your audience, which is very performative to your audience, which is more presentation, or with them, which is what much more of a conversation. And honestly, I think when you frame it that way, it does take the load off your shoulders of that anxiety and apprehension that we tend. To put on public speaking, yeah, Michael Hingson ** 25:02 and, and you're absolutely right, when, when I discovered doing it that way did so much more to connect with the audiences. You're right. It absolutely took a lot of the pressure off, and it made the speech more fun for me, and making it more fun for me made it more fun for the audience as well. Oh, Tina Bakehouse ** 25:27 they love seeing you have fun. In fact, they're they're having fun right right alongside you. Michael Hingson ** 25:32 Yeah. And sometimes, in the middle of a speech where I'm supposed to be doing a speech, I'll ask questions. Tina Bakehouse ** 25:38 Oh, yes, rhetorical question. That's a great not Michael Hingson ** 25:42 even rhetorical. I want them to answer. Wait to get answers, which is a lot of fun, and then I incorporate that into what I'm doing. And it's so much fun to do. But again, it's it's involving them. I don't necessarily do a lot of that, but I do some of that, and it depends on the audience. Sometimes I will try to draw them out more than at other times. I learned when I was doing professional sales that the best salespeople are really teachers, and they're also the best learners, and what they should do is never ask a closed ended like yes or no question, but always ask open ended questions in order to learn more about what the audience or the the customer needs, and that is so important to be able to do, and it is just as true when you're dealing with speaking to an audience, Tina Bakehouse ** 26:35 absolutely, absolutely. Yeah, that's Michael Hingson ** 26:39 so much and it's so much fun. Tina Bakehouse ** 26:41 Yes, it is. When Michael Hingson ** 26:43 did you publish your book? Tina Bakehouse ** 26:45 Well, I just published October of 2023, with manuscript publishing. So it's pretty fresh, hot off the press. And I, prior to that, worked with Georgetown University in their book creators group and got accepted into their publishing program with their manuscript publishing, and then this just yesterday, I did my rerecords for my audiobook with my producer and updated the manuscript. So that's on its way to be potentially up and running late spring, early summer. So that's exciting. Michael Hingson ** 27:17 That will be great. Yes, I will. I will want to read that when it comes out in in a readable form. Tina Bakehouse ** 27:25 Oh, yeah, absolutely. I mean, the the hard I have a hardcover, I have an ebook, I have a paperback, and then I'll have audio, so four different styles and trying to meet all those different learners in the way they prefer to download information. Yeah. Michael Hingson ** 27:43 So how does your temperament impact your communication with other people? Tina Bakehouse ** 27:50 Temperament is essential. It's part of the journey of awareness. I'm certified in Keirsey Temperament, and what I found in that journey of learning more and more about his work. And Kirsi David kirsiza was a social psychologist that did a lot of work, building off of what we know as Myers Briggs psychological insight of the self, and he did more listening and observing and noted that who we are is about 50 ish percent, just in our DNA makeup, that it just That's who we are, and the other part is the environment. So our personality is built with this equation of temperament, which is your natural born in inclinations, your DNA, to use words, behave, work, communicate and lead in a certain way, and then the environment or character in terms of what you are nurtured, the type of people you were around, the experiences that you've had that definitely impact who you are, temperament, I have found has been a beautiful insight and tool, not just for myself as a communicator, but to draw out of my clients the best, most magnetic communicator that they can be. So it's first acknowledging what is their core value, because they speak to that and when you are aware that you're more of a random communicator than a sequential one, that is helpful in team meetings, because as a random and I'm very much a random creative, I can drive a very logical, sequential meeting facilitator or person, frankly frustrated, and I found that I have to really negotiate and navigate those situations, and being flexible with my style. Sequential takes me extra work, but it makes sense when you speak, you need a sequence, a beginning, a middle and an. End, and I have to work extra hard because I have these random squirrel, squirrel, squirrel thoughts and acknowledge that moments of that are okay, but if I did that all the time, people would struggle being able to follow the message, particularly when people Yeah, yes. So that's an important piece, the other part of your temperament that I believe is very helpful to be aware of, is your propensity to use abstract and have a preference for abstract words or concrete, and we use both as human beings. But if I'm much more, love philosophies, love the abstracts and using metaphor and analogy. But I know if I sat in that space all the time, and I wouldn't reach 90% of the audience, which are much more preference preference to concrete and so it's it's having the sensory details and all of that as well. So that self awareness is huge. It also helps them. Once you're aware of your own core value and how that impacts how you communicate. It's then seeing the other three with clarity, and when you are able to be aware of, oh, that some people really have a various core value, I need to there's some people in the audience that really value just having fun, whereas others want to have more of the knowledge and the credibility, and they value that much more. So you want to balance those out. If you have too much knowledge and data, that's going to be heavy on the scale and and go over the audience's heads, but if you're all about the fun and have no depth, that, again, lacks balance. So temperament, really, I think, supports your influence as a persuasive communicator, because your audience has two choices, to tune you out or choose to listen. Yeah. Well, Michael Hingson ** 31:57 and as, as I said earlier, one of the things that that I work hard at is knowing how my audience is accepting what I say by different phrases that I might use, that I've learned get a specific kind of reaction, and if I don't get it, then I'm clearly not doing something right, and I have to work on it. But I also agree that it it really varies from audience to audience. What's the audience looking for, and how does the audience feel? And on one day, an audience may go one way and and the same group of people may react differently. Another time, Tina Bakehouse ** 32:36 Oh, absolutely. I mean, it could be time of day you're presenting. It could be something that's going on the morale of the organization, if you're doing a corporate presentation and they just got some bad news or something, didn't you know land Well, absolutely, that's a great point. Michael Hingson ** 32:51 Well, I also think that there, there are different kinds of techniques that speakers can use. One of the things that frustrates me is going into a speech, listening to a speech, where really what they're doing is projecting a PowerPoint on a screen and just reading the PowerPoint, yeah, where? Where is the real value in that? Tina Bakehouse ** 33:18 Right? And death by PowerPoint, yeah, Michael Hingson ** 33:22 and I see it way too often. Oh, absolutely. Tina Bakehouse ** 33:26 And I think what's really important is using the different learning styles and embedding that throughout your talk, if you're doing a formal keynote workshop, etc, and being aware that you tend to favor your own learning style. I'm very much an audible learner. That includes stories. I love listening to podcasts. I love analogies. I love puns and alliteration, all of that that's beautiful, but if I only do that, I'm really missing out on the visual learners who do appreciate a picture, a quick video clip, maybe a prop, etc. And the kinesthetic learners who love movement like buy a show of hands or what word comes to mind and you have them yell something out or talk to your partner about that's really helpful, of balancing those different styles as well as the written form to reflect on the content of your message. Yeah, Michael Hingson ** 34:25 I think one of the advantages potentially I have as a speaker is compared to most people, I'm different. How often do they hear a blind speaker? And the advantage of that is that I do get to study audiences, and I've been to a couple of places where, as it turns out, they were very uncomfortable with a person who was blind speaking, and my job was to work to get a more favorable reaction by the end. And there's one. Time that I didn't, and it turns out it was a very elderly group, and most of them, for whatever reason, weren't even really hearing what I had to say. But I didn't find that out till later. Oh, Tina Bakehouse ** 35:10 sure, which is no fun. You add, yeah, that would be a challenge. I I would say, I'd be curious, Michael, if you can really tune into energy, because you don't, you don't get to see nonverbal cues. I would love to hear your perspective on the how do you read an audience in your world? Michael Hingson ** 35:30 So I think that when when dealing with an audience, a cue may not be verbal, but there are a lot of other ways to tell what's going on. How fidgety is the audience, what kinds of background noises Do I hear or don't hear at one point, usually when I'm telling the world trade center story, I talk about the fact that we were on the 30th floor and firefighters were coming up the stairs, and the first one stops right in front of me, and he and he says, you know, are you? What are you? Okay? And I say, Sure. And he says, we're going to send somebody down the stairs with you to make sure you get out. Of course, I have to imitate his New York accent. So it's, we're going to send somebody down the stairs which you to make sure you get out. And I go, which, W, i t y, a witcha and and I say, Look, I don't need any assistance. I'm okay. I came down from the 78th floor. I really can. Can do just fine. And we go over it a little bit. And finally, I say, Look, I got my guide dog here. And he goes, Oh, what a nice dog. And he pets the dog without asking, and I say to the audience, so let me tell you, unlike what the firefighter did, don't ever pet a dog without asking, because the dog is in harness. They're working. So I got to sneak that lesson in. But anyway, then i i finally say, I've got a colleague here who can see and so the guy lets me go without needing to escort me down the stairs. And I explained why I didn't want his assistance, or anyone's assistance, for a lot of reasons. They don't know how to walkside a guy with a blind person, which is a problem. But also, I didn't need them to take someone out of their position, because they're all a big team, and they're going up to fight whatever's going on, and they didn't need to help me go down the stairs. So we finally get beyond that, and this is what I'm leading up to. And the last thing that the firefighter does as he's leaving is he pets Rozelle, my guide dog, and Roselle gives him some kisses, and then I say to the audience, and that may very well have been the last unconditional love that he ever got in his life. And that reaction is what I'm waiting to see, whether it's an intake of breath, whether people just are fidgeting, or whether the audience goes silent. And so there are a lot of ways to get a reaction at various times when I am speaking, or any blind person is speaking, if they learn how to listen for them and learn how to work at it where there is a lot more audio or auditory information available, if you know what to Listen for. So yeah, there are times that it could be a problem, or I'm doing a speech, and I hear every so often, people getting up and leaving and maybe going to the restroom and maybe coming back or not. And again, there are just so many different kinds of aspects that I can use in terms of my delivery and so on to gage how the audience is reacting to what I say and don't say, yeah. Tina Bakehouse ** 38:46 So I'd be curious. I mean, obviously that's feedback when you're hearing their behavior. So what? When you hear the fidgeting or people leaving? Now, clearly, biological, you know, physiological function, yeah, biology, you know those, there's those moments. But how do you alter what is it that you consider or do in that moment when you're acknowledging, oh, they're fidgeting, this is clearly not landing as I thought, as it did last time in a different group. Michael Hingson ** 39:18 So one thing I might do is immediately ask a question, like, you know, we're talking about the World Trade Center. Are you okay with me telling this story? Or I might say, you know, tell me a little bit briefly about your own experiences and observations, assuming that they're old enough to remember the World Trade Center. So there are a lot of ways then to re engage them, and I've had to do it occasionally, but when I do, it draws them right back in and again. Yeah, there are bio things that come up and so on. But when I hear a lot of it, then it means that. Different thing than if it's just like one or two people that get up and go out. The other thing that's fun to do, and I love to absorb, observe this, if a room isn't totally crowded, is looking to see if people are sitting in the front of the room, and if there are, I know, empty tables in the front of a room or empty seats. In the course of discussion, I may choose a time to say, you know, I know that the front row seats are really pretty empty. Let's take a break. Why doesn't some Why don't some of you move up to the front of the room? I might see you better, probably not. But the dog will love it. But the dog will love it. You know, again, it's all about engaging the audience, and most of the time, very frankly, I've been fortunate and don't have to do a lot of that. Tina Bakehouse ** 40:47 Well, I love, I love the tools you you have strategies too, that when that maybe that moment happens, but I appreciate you sharing that. Michael Hingson ** 40:55 Yeah, and it's, but it's, it's part of what needs to happen as a speaker. There are a lot of ways to get the same information and the assumption that most people have as well non verbal communications, you'll never see it. Don't think so for a minute. There are a lot of ways to get information and see how well the audience is engaged. And again, I've been really blessed that, pretty much for the most part, it works out really well. Tina Bakehouse ** 41:24 That's wonderful. Now I have Michael Hingson ** 41:26 given PowerPoint presentations too. When I did sales presentations, I would do PowerPoint shows. But again, what I didn't like to do, although I had a complete Braille script, my Braille script was, was pretty unique, because it had all the words that were on the slides. It also had a description, because we put it in there of what the pictures showed. But for me, it also we, we created the script that also said where on the screen the pictures would show up. So I so I could, for example, point over my shoulder and say, on the left side of your screen you'll see, or on the right side of the screen you'll see, and the value of that is, I never looked away from the audience. I didn't need to turn around to see where things were on the screen. And as I changed slides my laptop, although the lion was loud enough for me to hear, wasn't loud enough for other people to hear. I knew that the slide changed, but I could continue to, if you will, make eye contact with the audience and keep them engaged. And one day, I did one of those, and a guy comes up to me afterward. He said, I'm mad at you. We're all mad at you. And I said, why? He said, Because you gave a very good presentation. It was not boring because I don't read the script. I verbalize what's on the script and add to it. But he said, you your presentation was absolutely not boring. But the big problem was we forgot you were blind because you you never looked away from us. You kept looking at us. And so we didn't dare fall asleep like we do with most presentations. That's wonderful. And of course, my immediate reaction was, well, it was okay if you had fallen asleep because the dogs down here taking notes, and we would have got you anyway, but, but it's, it's all about I think you're absolutely right. It's okay to do PowerPoint presentations, PowerPoint shows, but you don't read what's on the screen. You really need to continue to be a speaker. Tina Bakehouse ** 43:32 Well, it's called a visual aid for a reason. It's to aid the speaker, support the speaker, be secondary to the speaker. And frankly, I've when I do my TEDx Talk later this year, I have one slide I'm using, and I have a prop, and I'm just sharing information and connecting with my audience, because I feel like you have to really be intentional with how you use those slides, and they need to support your information and not be a crutch like some speakers make them be, yeah, Michael Hingson ** 44:04 usually I'll be talking with whoever's planning the show when they'll ask if they can put a prop up, a picture of the World Trade Center or a picture of my book, Thunder dog or whatever. And I'm fine for them to do that, because they'll show it on screens and all that and that, that works out perfectly well. So, you know, I'm fine with it. And I think there's there again, there's a place for props. And occasionally I will have something else, if I'm doing a talk that is going to involve technology, and a lot of times, people are curious about how I do different things, I will have something up there that I can show so that they can really see how I do the things that they do, although I do them in a different way, and that's fun, too. Tina Bakehouse ** 44:51 It's that individualized means of being that you are owning your your your style, your authentic speaker style. Yeah. Michael Hingson ** 44:59 Yeah, so I understand you lost your voice once. That must have been fun. Fun Tina Bakehouse ** 45:05 is probably not the adjective it was. It was a unique experience. It was a surprise. I mean, imagine teaching, of all things, public speaking, and I opened my mouth in a sophomore speech class. This was years ago, and nothing comes out, not even squeak. I mean, I've had some hoarseness in the past, but this was I opened my mouth, and nothing came out. And immediately, a student assisted me, got the principal in, and I had to go home because I couldn't teach. I mean, I I finished that class and wrote things on the board, but you can't do that for eight periods in a day. Wow. And what I found during that time, when I came home and it didn't return and it didn't return, I started to panic, yeah, what is happening here? Because this is really, it's like, it's part of my business, it's part of what I do. I'm an educator. If I can't speak, that's that's going to really put a put a wrinkle in what I'm doing with my career. So I decided that I needed support and sought out a speech pathologist, and we went through breathing exercises, and she and she analyzed that I had gone through some anxiety, and it was the anxiety that really tightened up my vocal cords, because I had a very couple tough classes that were challenging And in terms of behavior. And so anxiety was really impacting. The stress was impacting that those vocal cords. So I from her, she then connected me to a larnacologist who specialized in opera singers, and he assessed my vocal cords. And looked at me and went, Uh, you have Vocal cord nodules. And I was like, Oh, no. Julie Andrews, from Sound of Music, had this very thing, and she had the surgery that permanently changed her pitch, made it lower. And he did give me two options. He said you could do the surgery and your voice could change and be lower, or it could remain the same and be more hoarse. Or you can do six weeks of silence and that's no laughing, because that's very hard on your vocal cords, which is hard for me. I'm a gut wrench like the I have a big, hearty laugh. No talking, absolutely no cheating on any of this and whispering is the worst as well. So yeah, it's the worst. So I did the six weeks of silence, and what I found during that time as I had a myriad of one sided conversations, a lot of people popped by, wanted to visit, and I would just listen. People want to be seen, heard, and share their voice, their ideas, their opinions, their stories. And I became very clear that it's all about being fully present, about letting go of what's going on in my head, noticing more of what's being said, not said, and using everything like what's going on in their world, and being impacted potentially by what the other says. Don't not coming in with my own agenda. And that was a powerful experience. And I found, as I was working on this audiobook in January of this past year that my voice was doing the same. I started to squeak a little bit because I was coming, I've been experiencing burnout from nearly a two year stint of running a business and doing this book and having intense deadlines with my publisher, and I found, oh my gosh, I need to meditate. I need to relax. No amount of warm tea, food. It's a myth. Food does not impact your vocal cords, and so it's the warm beverage, the temperature can help soothe but it's being very cognizant of your stress has a bigger impact. And I just learned so much from that experience, and then the weirdness of it happening again years later, it was like a weird parallel experience of okay, lesson learned, take care of thyself, to put forth a voice that you want people to hear for this book. Michael Hingson ** 49:31 Years and years ago, I attended a training program. It was a one day thing by Ken Blanchard, you know, the One Minute Manager guy and several of us from my company went and he made a comment that good speakers often will drink something warm, like water with lemon and honey before doing a speech, not. Ever milk, because that's the mucus thing. But over, over the years, I developed a taste for tea, and so I have tea in the morning. I'll have a few mugs of tea in the morning, and generally not later in the day. But the warm, the warm liquid, as you say, is very soothing. It does make a difference food, nah, but the tea does help, and it's mainly that it's a warm beverage. I've never been a coffee drinker, but I've grown to like tea, so that works well, Tina Bakehouse ** 50:33 and especially it's the temperature and the liquid to keep it moist that is helpful, more than anything. But the breathing piece is really, really influential as well, yeah, Michael Hingson ** 50:44 and it's important to do that. Well, you are a communications consultant and coach. How are you different than other people who are communications consultants and coaches? Well, Tina Bakehouse ** 50:55 I'm a Holistic Communication Consultant coach, where I have that foundation of the more than 20 years of teaching, researching, engaging in the content area from not only the high school level, but the the as a professor at a college or institution. But then also, I come from a spiritual background, and when I work with my clients, I look at them as a soul and and really understanding the mind message mechanics and that it's really tapping into our heart, getting out of those conditioned beliefs and being the loving, wise adults that we're called to be, because that impacts the kind of message you create and then The way you impart it out into the world, yeah, Michael Hingson ** 51:43 and I think that's important. And my impression just in talking with you all this time, is that, although I think there are a lot of people who will do their best to analyze and think about a client, you approach it probably a little bit more unique way from a communication standpoint, so that there's a connection that's probably stronger or more vibrant than a lot of people would have with clients. Tina Bakehouse ** 52:12 Well, everything is energy, and that people feel your magnetism or lack thereof, and that's why it's coming from the heart, and that will definitely be a stronger, stronger, more influential presentation. Michael Hingson ** 52:27 So what is your business called? You said you have a business I Tina Bakehouse ** 52:31 do. It's called Tina B LLC, and I just at the time in 2020 during the pandemic, when I'd been doing this consulting and coaching work on the side for more than a decade. I struggled with the name, and I just thought, well, use my own. And when I say, Hey, Tina, B LLC, yeah, you know me, and people have found it to be very easy to find me and in terms of what I do and how I facilitate the work that I do. It's not only through my magnetic leadership blueprint series, but also my magnetic speaking blueprint series. They're six month programs, and I love doing those individual programs to support people, guide them on their journey, and facilitate virtual and in person workshops and finally, keynotes, yeah, Michael Hingson ** 53:28 which is, which is cool, yeah, Tina Bakehouse ** 53:30 ranging from yes and leadership within my background in improv to temperament to storytelling and magnetic communication, tell Michael Hingson ** 53:38 me a little about improv that That must have been fun to learn to do, or how, how did all that come about? Tina Bakehouse ** 53:45 Well, I have a theater degree, and actually, naturally, it's, it's one of the things that they throw you into to get that experience. And then as I got into my world of the adult hood, I decided my play yard is improv. It's high risk, high reward, and in terms of community theater, I just didn't have the time commitment that that requires. So I still take improv classes. It's my beautiful way of laughing and learning, and it's all about Yes, and which means accept the other in the moment, as it occurs, and add something to it. And I found that this has made such a huge impact, not only on my life, personally, with my relationships, but also in my work life as well. Michael Hingson ** 54:34 Good to be flexible. Tina Bakehouse ** 54:35 It is absolutely it's making your partner look good. It's all about that creative piece, the innovation working the brain in such a way that you align with your heart, being in the moment and and tapping into that is just a beautiful experience. Michael Hingson ** 54:55 Well, you know, one of the things that I'm a little curious about, going back to your business a little bit, is you're. In rural Iowa. How is it doing a business from rural Iowa, Iowa, especially when you have to travel and all that. Where's the nearest airport? Tina Bakehouse ** 55:07 The nearest airport is Omaha, Nebraska, about 45 minutes away. And really, I'm lucky that we have this thing called technology, because this is how we're connecting zoom, Google meets all of that has been amazing to expand my business nationally and internationally and to feel connected during the pandemic. Yeah. Michael Hingson ** 55:25 Well, Omaha is only 45 minutes away, and that's a fairly good sized airport, so that's pretty convenient when you have to travel Tina Bakehouse ** 55:32 absolutely, absolutely so. Michael Hingson ** 55:37 And I agree with you. I'm not in a rural area, definitely a suburban area. Victorville is about 8085, miles northeast of Los Angeles, and we're about 40 miles or so from the nearest airport, about 45 to 50 minutes from ontario california airport. But again, figured that out early, and it's a lot easier to go to Ontario airport than going all the way down to Los Angeles to LAX. So Tina Bakehouse ** 56:06 that works. It absolutely works. Yeah, and, Michael Hingson ** 56:10 and there's a shuttle service up here so I can travel. But also, zoom works well. Now doing keynotes for me with Zoom isn't as easy, because I don't always get the same kind of ability to distinguish audience reactions, because it's a lot quieter, of course, so that's a little bit more of a challenge. Tina Bakehouse ** 56:32 Oh, absolutely, you don't get that feedback, Michael Hingson ** 56:37 no. So it is something to, you know, to deal with. Tina Bakehouse ** 56:43 Yes, it is. And so I think it's great that you challenge yourself and put yourself out there in that way. Oh, Michael Hingson ** 56:48 yeah. And I have no problem doing zoom and all that as well. Well, you clearly like to storytell, and I know you get a lot of that from doing theater and so on. Tell me a little bit about telling stories. Tina Bakehouse ** 57:03 Well, telling stories is just been a part of my my day to day. Being as an oldest of three, I supported my sister learning how to read because I loved a good book like Nancy, Drew books and loved to embody characters by creating, and I found that in my experience, that stories really connect our our ways of being within ourselves and making sense of the world, but with others, because they have high stakes, it's a shared experience that really draws people in, whether you're entertaining at a party or you are presenting formally and everything in between, even facilitating a meeting with your team. And so I've I love anything from a fun story of watching TED lasso, which talk about rich, great characters, and then having that shared experience with my family, to talk about it afterwards, to when I sit down with a great book, whether it's a children's book, or a non fiction or fiction text, and really put myself into the story and learn from that main character, the protagonist to embodying that practice in how I market my business naturally, and how I connect with other people. So it's, it's imperative. I feel like it's, it's part of human nature, because our brains are wired for story, and when we hear a great story, it literally that oxytocin, that that hormone that really supports us wanting to help other people, increases when they tell when we tell stories, which to me, that makes it such a powerful, persuasive tool Michael Hingson ** 58:56 and nothing like a good story To make life a lot more fun. Tina Bakehouse ** 58:59 Totally, absolutely, well. Michael Hingson ** 59:03 As we wrap up, I'd love your thoughts on what you might say to somebody who wants to be a speaker, what are some basic kinds of advice that you would give someone who's looking to speak or to to to involve themselves with other people like that, Tina Bakehouse ** 59:22 I would say three tips. The first is to analyze, with authenticity, step back and be aware of where does speaking play in your business, in your personal and professional and life in general, and where are you? Where do you want to go, and what is your speaker style? Are you at a level that you're happy with, or do you want to expand and grow? So be be in that analysis phase of, where am I? Where do I want to go? And analyze that very honestly. Second, it's craft your content. In a clear, powerful, purposeful way. Every single speech that I've seen that I've been moved, it's clear that the it moved and mattered to the speaker. So your passion leads your communication. Don't talk about something you don't care about, and put yourself out there in a way that is meaningful and true. My spouse is a farmer. He cares about soil health. That's his mantra, his it's his North Star. So he goes on panels and speaks at conferences about his practices to add diversity the soil. Speak the truth and take the time to prepare. The last is you can perfect your performance or get it to a way that you feel you're anchoring in your confidence by practicing frequently, having a speaker ritual, tapping into those vocal and physical mechanics and eliciting the support of a guide, whether it's a style that you need Real help in terms of crafting the message, which I do that kind of work, or it's getting out of your head because you're in your own way, which is more mindset and heart centered means of being I do that work, or it's just, I know that I've got a great speech, I just can't deliver it. My voice is shaking, or my body gets stiff. That's the mechanics. So eliciting that help from someone who knows what they're talking about can really make an impact and get you there faster. So when you put in the reps, just like if you the Super Bowl was not too long ago, coaches make a difference. They readjust at that, at that, you know, halftime spot, and coaches get you there faster, but it's finding the right support if you are wanting to expand and up level your speaker style, right? Michael Hingson ** 1:01:48 There's never anything wrong with having a coach and someone to advise and help you and look at what you do objectively, and who's going to be honest back with you, Tina Bakehouse ** 1:01:57 well, right? And I, I've elicited the help of coaches for my business and for and feedback and support with my presentations as well, because I know I don't know all and I never will. I'm always like you, Michael, learning, growing, stretching, it's a lot more fun. It is a lot more fun. Totally agree. Well, Michael Hingson ** 1:02:17 if people want to reach out to you and maybe talk about you being their coach and all that. How do they do that? Tina Bakehouse ** 1:02:22 They can reach out to me on my [e-mail], that's Tina T, I n, a, bakehouse B, as in boy, a, k, e, house as in casa.com. And you can certainly find my book. Is there? Resources, videos, my blog, I write a couple of months to support you and guide you in the power of magnetic communications, storytelling strategies and more. Michael Hingson ** 1:02:52 Well, Tina, thank you for being here on unstoppable mindset. Clearly, you have one, an unstoppable mindset that is. And I'm really glad that we had the opportunity to spend a bunch of time and talk about speaking. It's one of my favorite subjects, because I learn every time I get to talk about it, which is, of course, for me, the whole point, Tina Bakehouse ** 1:03:14 and I learned from you as well. It's a beautiful connection in that regard. Well, Michael Hingson ** 1:03:18 we'll have to do more of this absolutely. Well. I want to thank you again, and I want to thank all of you, wherever you are, for listening to us and I guess watching us today, please give us a five star rating wherever you're encountering our podcast. We really appreciate the ratings, especially those five star ones. But if you have any thoughts I'd love to hear from you, feel free to email me. You can reach me at Michael M, I, C, H, A, E, L, H, I at accessibe, A, C, C, E, S, S, I, B, e.com, or go to our podcast page. That's always a great place to go. He said, with a very prejudiced idea, you can go to www.michaelhingson.com/podcast Michael Hinkson is, m, I, C, H, A, E, L, H, I N, G, s, o, n, so Michael hinkson.com/podcast love again to hear your thoughts and for all of you and Tina, if you know of anyone else who ought to come on unstoppable mindset, or you think they ought to, I buy it. I'd love to hear from you with any recommendations and introductions that anybody wants to provide. So again, I want to thank you, Tina, for being here and making this happen. This was a lot of fun, and I really appreciate your time. Tina Bakehouse ** 1:04:32 I appreciate you as well. Thank you for the invitation. Michael, Michael Hingson ** 1:04:40 You have been listening to the Unstoppable Mindset podcast. Thanks for dropping by. I hope that you'll join us again next week, and in future weeks for upcoming episodes. To subscribe to our podcast and to learn about upcoming episodes, please visit www dot Michael hingson.com slash podcast. Michael Hingson is spelled m i c h a e l h i n g s o n. While you're on the site., please use the form there to recommend people who we ought to interview in upcoming editions of the show. And also, we ask you and urge you to invite your friends to join us in the future. If you know of any one or any organization needing a speaker for an event, please email me at speaker at Michael hingson.com. I appreciate it very much. To learn more about the concept of blinded by fear, please visit www dot Michael hingson.com forward slash blinded by fear and while you're there, feel free to pick up a copy of my free eBook entitled blinded by fear. The unstoppable mindset podcast is provided by access cast an initiative of accessiBe and is sponsored by accessiBe. Please visit www.accessibe.com . AccessiBe is spelled a c c e s s i b e. There you can learn all about how you can make your website inclusive for all persons with disabilities and how you can help make the internet fully inclusive by 2025. Thanks again for Listening. Please come back and visit us again next week.