#29: Help Your Kids Navigate Friendships, with Jessica Speer

Love Is Us: Exploring Relationships and How We Connect

As the start of the next school year approaches, many kids and teens are wondering if they’ll find friends and fit in. Relationships are paramount to a child’s healthy development, yet they are more challenging than ever given the impact and prevalence of social media. If you are a parent of kids aged 8-18, this episode is for you. My guest today, Jessica Speer, can help your kids and teens learn how to build relational skills that will last them a lifetime.

Jessica is the highly acclaimed author of three books for kids and teens. Her most recent book was published today, August 8, 2023: The Phone Book - Stay Safe, Be Smart and Make the World Better with the Powerful Device in Your Hand. Her first book, BFF or NRF (Not Really Friends), was a finalist for the 2022 Kids Choice Book Awards. Her second book, Middle School - Safety Goggles Advised, is a finalist for the 2023 Colorado Book Award.

Blending science, stories, humor, and fun activities, her writing unpacks tricky stuff that surfaces during childhood and adolescence. She has a Master's Degree in Social Sciences and a knack for writing about complex topics in ways that connect with kids. Jessica regularly contributes to media outlets on content related to kids, parenting, friendship, and social-emotional learning.

Learn more about Jessica:

Website: www.JessicaSpeer.com IG: https://www.instagram.com/jessica_speer_author/ LI: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jessica-speer-46b6457/ Twitter: https://twitter.com/SpeerAuthor

Check out Jessica’s books: Jessica Speer books

Karin’s website: www.drcalde.com

Podcast Intro:

[00:00] Karin: This is Love Is Us, Exploring Relationships and How We Connect. I'm your host, Karin Calde. I'll talk with people about how we can strengthen our relationships, explore who we are in those relationships, and experience a greater sense of love and connection with those around us, including ourselves. I have a PhD in clinical Psychology, practiced as a psychologist resident, and after diving into my own healing work, I went back to school and became a coach, helping individuals and couples with their relationships and personal growth. If you want to experience more love in your life and contribute to healing the disconnect so prevalent in our world today, you're in the right place. Welcome to Love is Us.

Episode Intro:

Karin: Hello everybody, and welcome to today's episode where we're going to be talking about friendship. Now, we talked about adult friendship back in episode number twelve with Lee Hopkins, but today we're going to be focusing on kid friendships and specifically friendships for kids ages eight on up. So eight preteen teens specifically. So I'm going to be talking with Jessica Spear who's written a number of books on this topic and she's going to give us some really great information. You might even decide to listen to this episode if you have a child around that preteen age, if they're open to it. So, yeah, she gives us some really great tips and I think this is stuff that will benefit kids now when they learn it so that then they can also benefit from it as they're growing up because these are lifelong skills. Like I said, Jessica has written a number of books and in fact, today or the day that I'm publishing this episode, she is publishing her third book called The Phone Book. Stay safe, be smart and make the world better with the powerful device in your hand Sorry, that's a long name. She also has two other really popular, well or highly rated books. The first one is BFF or NRF. Not really. Friends a Girl's Guide to Happy Friendships. And then her second book was called Middle School Safety. Goggles advised exploring the weird stuff from gossip to grades, clicks to crushes and popularity to peer pressure. Just seems like these are good books to have on hand, not necessarily to push on your kids, but just to have available because kids don't necessarily want to come to us for advice all the time, but they might be interested in looking at it if they happen to see a book around on the topic. So anyway, I hope that you enjoy this episode. I hope you'll leave me a review that really helps me and my podcast and it helps to get this podcast out to more people. So thanks for being here and I hope you enjoy the episode. Hello Jessica, and welcome.

Transcript:

[03:06] Jessica: Hi KarIn, thanks so much for having me.

[03:09] Karin: Yeah, absolutely, thanks for being here. So tell us where you are in the world.

[03:14] Jessica: I am in the mountains of Colorado. So I'm way up at 7000ft up way up outside of Denver, Colorado.

[03:23] Karin: Oh, nice. I just interviewed someone else from that part of the world. So yeah, it's funny, it seems to cluster interview people that are in the similar areas for a while. So what keeps, you know, at this.

[03:40] Jessica: Stage, I'm married and I've got two teen daughters, and we live in a smaller mountain town. And we are here, one, because we love the outdoors and the environment here, and two, because I've got two in high school now. And so we're kind of on the home stretch, really focusing on helping them get through their final high school years. And yeah, so we'll plan to be here at least for the next five to ten years. And then after that, who knows, maybe we'll be tired of the snow by then. That's what I'm guessing.

[04:14] Karin: You must get a lot of snow.

[04:16] Jessica: Oh, a ton of snow. I do a lot of shoveling.

[04:20] Karin: Oh boy. Yeah, I could imagine after a while that might get old. Well, tell us what you do for work.

[04:29] Jessica: Well, these days so the past ten years I've been focusing on writing guidebooks for kids on tricky topics. So I've got a background in social sciences, which I've done all sorts of work there, from working as a professor, as a college, to working as a nonprofit director. So I've worked in that field. But about ten years ago I decided to really focus in on kids and relationships especially. A lot of it was triggered when my kids were that age. So I started doing research and I started then writing books out of that research. And I've got three books now that are all geared towards a genre that's middle grade, which is grades usually about eight to twelve. And I love that age range because so much is happening, there so many changes in life. So I love to really focus in on the tough stuff that kind of sometimes trips up families or might be challenging for kids. And so I like to write about that in a way that is fun and helps guide kids through tricky things.

[05:36] Karin: And that is a topic that I know many parents really appreciate learning about because yeah, it is a tricky time and I think a lot of parents struggle to understand what's going on because times now really are different than they were when we were that age. There are different kinds of challenges.

[06:01] Jessica: Yeah, that's for sure. Some things are the same. It's a big developmental stage where they're shifting kind of from childhood into this more young adulthood stage. So it's still that in between stage filled with changes. But there's a lot also going on just because of this world we live in today and how connected they are with technology, right, absolutely.

[06:23] Karin: And you said that you have this social sciences background and that you taught for a while and did some different things with that. And then when your kids were that age, that's when you started to do this kind of work. Is there anything else that inspired you to start writing these books?

[06:40] Jessica: Yeah. And so what is so interesting to me and inspiring are just human relationships and how we connect and what makes relationships healthy and strong. So that is what I've been really focusing on. And so where I started with that was with friendships. Because friendships are so important throughout our lives, from the time we're very little to the time that we are in our senior years, friendships are really important not only for our mental but even our physical health. So I wanted to focus on that. And at this pivotal age where kids are between eight and the early teen years, they're learning a lot of skills that support their friendships. And so where I started was a friendship program that was actually for all genders. But it turns out that the kids that came were mostly young females between the ages of eight to twelve. And we talked about a lot of stuff like that, a lot of friendship skills and how to navigate conflict in healthy ways. And that's what grew into my first book. And then ever since that I just can't get away from the topic of connection and healthy relationships and positive communication.

[07:53] Karin: All good stuff.

[07:55] Jessica: I can relate. Absolutely.

[07:56] Karin: It inspires me, for sure. So what do you see happening nowadays with teens and their friendship? And I suppose I should say it's really preteens mostly and even a little.

[08:09] Jessica: Bit younger and sometimes early teens too. But what I see happening, some of it, like I said, is similar to when we were growing up in the developmental stages, which causes a lot of shifts in friendships, especially in the preteen years, because developmentally they're again. Moving from more of a childhood where relationships are based on play into where they're really starting to explore their identity and who they are and what they're interested in, and that ripples through their friendship. But what has made things even more challenging today is because a lot of this is happening online now. Communicating online. That's tricky thinking about the skills and the confidence that have to go into navigating group texts or maybe what to say on social media and how to respond. That's complicated. And it's so ongoing. So many kids are connected for so many hours a day that they don't get a big break. When we were young, when school was over, things settled down quite a bit. But often now it's just beginning once the school day ends.

[09:15] Karin: Right? Yeah. And what does make that so challenging? What is it about technology that is so hard for kids to figure out?

[09:26] Jessica: There's so many and I guess let's just start with social media because it just so happens that yesterday the Surgeon General of the United States came out with a warning that we're not 100% sure that social media is actually safe, especially when we get to this group of preteens and younger teens. It's so new and it all happens so fast, where kids are getting on younger and younger. We don't have great data and the data we have is very mixed. Depending on how the study was done and what questions they were asking, the Surgeon General actually came out and said we're not sure how safe this is yet and we need some more protections in place for kids. And I totally agree. So back to your question. What is happening is, one, as these young brains are developing, the ping of the phone or whatever gives them a little dopamine hit. So then they're drawn right back to the phone. So it's almost training them to find some rewards by picking up the phone, seeing what is said. So that's one challenge is how is that changing the brain? And then a whole nother dynamic is a lot of these online communications are really hard to interpret. We know that most of our communications, when we're face to face with somebody, is coming through our body language and our tone of voice and our facial expression. So that's 70% of our communications where a minority are the words that are shared. But when we switch that to online, it opens up this huge can of worms of interpretation. Like what did that actually mean? That is so challenging for young brains to figure out. And we might make an assumption that is totally false based on how something was written or whether there was all caps or something like that.

[11:20] Karin: Or they didn't put a period at the end.

[11:23] Jessica: Exactly. Yeah, exactly. So it's opened up huge amounts of misinterpretation, which at this stage where kids are pretty vulnerable, we're not our most confident selves. When we are preteens and early teens, that's where we are starting over to build up our confidence. So that's tricky when we're also not sure about our communications or where our relationships stand. That just adds even a whole new layer of trickiness to that stage.

[11:53] Karin: Yeah, I laugh because I can't even imagine I think of myself at that age and how everything was just so in retrospect, I think it was confusing. I don't know that I knew it was confusing in the timing. I just felt kind of dragged along. It was just figuring things out and figuring out how to fit in. So to put that all on top of it is just so tricky.

[12:21] Jessica: Yeah, it's not uncommon for that age group to feel a little unsettled because they're often experiencing a lot of things for the very first time. So they might be experiencing more complicated group dynamics, they might be experiencing friendship changes in a bigger way for the first time. They might be really exploring their identity. So there's so many things happening for the first time. And when we're experiencing things for the first time. There's a huge learning curve there, which is why a lot of kids feel discomfort and lack of confidence during this stage of life.

[12:57] Karin: Yeah. What do you tell them? You talked about how it's so hard to interpret. How do you help kids with that?

[13:09] Jessica: It takes a lot of conversations, especially at home. So if caregivers can remind kids that we are just seeing one piece of the communication here, that, again, talking about how much communication is outside of our words. And unfortunately, on social media, unless we're recording a video, we are just confined to those words. So helping kids understand that it's really easy to misinterpret things and often take a breather before we respond right away. So sometimes we might have a reaction. And kids, their prefrontal cortex is not fully formed yet. They're still working on getting that executive functioning to really kind of pause, think about our options, and then maybe respond. So there might be some quick responses that they later regret. So I think especially at home, as parents can help kids talk that through, to help them avoid jumping to conclusions and making assumptions and sending things off before they've thought them through. So that takes a lot of skill and practice there.

[14:14] Karin: Yeah, it sounds like that pause, that pause before we respond is important for the rest of our lives, and it can be so challenging for people to do that and to learn how to do that. And yet learning it early on can serve them so well.

[14:36] Jessica: Yeah, so true.

[14:38] Karin: So tell us about popularity in middle school and how that plays out in friendships.

[14:45] Jessica: Yeah. Where I got deep into studying popularity was my second book, which is called Middle School Safety goggles advised it dives into the tricky stuff that happens in middle school. I spent some time in 7th grade classrooms and asking students, so what are some of the trickiest things about middle school? And that came up a lot. The whole popularity scene was mentioned was in the top ten. So it made the book because it was so confusing for kids. And when I dug deeper into research on the subject, what I found was so interesting. So this period of time when we're in middle school, kids are looking for different types of popularity. And so there is a professor, Dr. Mitch Prinstein, who wrote this book, actually called Popular. He studied this for a long time. And there's a status popularity, which is the type of popularity that we see kind of peak in middle school. And this popularity is based more on power and influence on the group, sometimes aggressive. Then there's a different type of popularity, and it's called likable popularity. And these are the kids that actually are pro social. They are kind. They might be confident, they might be strong leaders, but kids are not fearful of them, where if we go up to the other status popularity especially in middle school, kids might be a little nervous about around those kids because like I said, they might be aggressive, they might be a little controlling. So in middle school, that status popularity kind of peaks. And a lot of us can remember back to those years where there were some kids that we were kind of were pretty afraid of maybe in middle school. But then that starts to fizzle away towards the middle of high school and this other sort of popularity, which are the pro social the kids that others truly like because they tend to be really nice, kind, considerate people that then takes precedent. And often those that had the status popularity in middle school are not regarded as popular anymore. So it's great for kids to know. And this is what I would talk to students about, is just differentiating, what kind of popular are they? And just understanding different kinds of popularity, because what we're really looking at is the qualities underneath, right? And we can talk to students about, well, what qualities do you want to cultivate within yourself that's so interesting?

[17:17] Karin: There are those two different kinds, but I could see that. But yeah, there are the cool kids, the ones that have that power and that everyone probably looks up to. But yeah, they're a little bit scary.

[17:30] Jessica: And intimidating and they tend to take more risks. So sometimes those are the kids that we see maybe testing out some things earlier. Maybe they're testing out some drugs and alcohol. It definitely feels like a different sort of, if we're going to put in quotes, popularity than the kids that are the more likable kids that people genuinely like and might feel emotionally safe being around them because they know that this person is not so interested in status. They just happen to be like kind and good leaders and cooperative and how.

[18:04] Karin: Can we help foster those qualities in our kids?

[18:08] Jessica: Yeah, and this, again, takes just a ton of conversations at home. Usually I start with noticing which relationships feel really great to them and what are the qualities about those relationships that they like. And then noticing that they can then cultivate those within themselves. So if they like a certain friend, because I feel like this friend is so trustworthy and really listens to them, so really helping them understand in their friendships which of their friendships feel really good and what is about those that makes those friendships feel really emotionally safe and reciprocal. And especially in these preteen years, that's an important thing to do because sometimes kids might end up with a friend that doesn't feel really good. And so that's sometimes, from the parent perspective, hard to watch. So if our kid is really struggling in what appears to be an unhealthy friendship, how do we manage that? As parents, often we have to kind of step back, but keep asking those questions to help them see maybe what's going on in that relationship, what maybe doesn't feel so great in that relationship and help direct them that way.

[19:22] Karin: Yeah, I can imagine. It can be really a dance that we have to do with our kids in terms of staying involved and yet not becoming that helicopter parent and not being controlling. Because I know that kids just really drives them crazy.

[19:43] Jessica: It does. What I found is during these years, because they are kind of vulnerable years filled with change, they might stick in an unhealthy relationship for longer than we'd like. Mostly because not having a friend or not having a group is really scary. So this is a stage of life where belonging is so important, so it might take so much preparation and courage before they're actually ready to step out of that relationship. Sometimes from the adult level, we can question like, why are you still hanging out with this person? And it might be that it might be that they're waiting till they feel like they know their next path. They're avoiding feeling alone and really vulnerable that way, but just staying really compassionate and talking them through these uncomfortable times, helping them see maybe what's not working in this relationship so they can start to put some words to that.

[20:41] Karin: Yeah, that makes so much sense. Yeah. That pull to belong and to be accepted is just so strong at that age.

[20:50] Jessica: Oh, it is. And developmentally, this is when kids are they're always individuating from us as parents, but they're especially individuating here. During these preteen and early teen years, they're really starting to figure out, wait, hey, who am I on my own? So the weight in friendships gets a lot bigger than typically in the past, where they're very family oriented in the younger years, where they're starting to think about, well, who am I on my own? And so the friendships become really powerful in that.

[21:21] Karin: And it makes me think about those who have extra challenges. So it could be people who have disabilities, but also people who might be in the racial minority at a school or be part of the LGBTQ plus community. So how can they work through this effectively?

[21:41] Jessica: Yeah, and sometimes for some kids, it's hard for them to find a really good fit at school. And that is so hard. And I know kids like this that there's something really awesome and special about them, but they just can't find their people at school. So as parents, we can help them connect maybe outside of school. So maybe it's a special summer camp, maybe it's some extra activity outside of school where they can find a good connection that feels like a really good fit. But it's not that uncommon for kids to have a hard time finding their people. And there's a resource that I share. It's called the friendship pyramid. And the very, very tippy top of that pyramid is the Close Friends, which is very small because I think it's important for kids to know that it sometimes is hard to find close friends. And so that's not uncommon. And so once kids know that that, hey, it might not just be me, that close friends are really hard to find and sometimes really hard in middle school to find something that feels like a close friend. But underneath that, the second part of the pyramid is friends. And so I'm really loose with this term because I find that kids today are too. They might have online friends, they might have neighbors and teammates and classmates. So I use that term pretty loosely. And so these might not be the closest safest sort of relationships, but they're important. It's really important for kids to have lots of people that might fit in that friend bucket, as loose as it might be. Because you never know. Some of those friends over time might grow into close friends. And then at the base, the pyramid is acquaintances. So these are all the people out there that we don't know yet, or maybe we just see them in the hall. But keeping kids minds open to these are possible friends too. So what I like to talk to kids about is kids are changing so much during these years. Now that I've got two high schoolers, it's fun to see the change from these kids that I've known since they were little and all their friends up to high school. It's so different. They're all such different people. So helping our kids stay open to that. They might know somebody from elementary school that they never thought they'd be good friends within high school and then all of a sudden they actually have a lot in common and they become good friends. So helping our kids allow others to grow and change too.

[24:13] Karin: Yeah, it's funny. I have three kids and one is graduating high school this year. And we moved to another town about four years ago. But we went back to our old town this weekend and watched the high school play because she has kept in touch and is really good friends with some of those people in the other town. And it was so interesting to see some of these kids that I had known since kindergarten and to see the relationships that have developed or maybe the ruptures that have also developed between people and how those friendship groups have shifted. So very much.

[24:57] Jessica: So true.

[24:58] Karin: Yeah.

[24:58] Jessica: And I share often friendship truths and that is one of the truths. One of the friendship truths is friendships have different phases and change over time. And so once we know that, it's always awkward when a friendship changes or we lose a friend. But just knowing that that is actually the norm when it comes to human relationships, they do have different phases and changes over time. It's uncomfortable, but it's super common.

[25:28] Karin: Yeah, it can be so hard for some kids who are really sensitive that.

[25:32] Jessica: Totally struggled with that. Yeah, absolutely.

[25:36] Karin: So I do want to dive into those ten truths that you talked about, but I also want to go back to differences between girls and boys that.

[25:44] Jessica: You notice, and that's a great question. So like I said, the first book I wrote, I wrote for girls because those were the girls that populated my friendship program. However, there were so many boys or kids that identify as different genders that really could have benefit from the program. So I feel like actually that's on me for some reason. Program I ran drew a population of girls and I wrote the book because I wanted to share those actual stories. However, I would love to write this again for kids of all genders because I don't think there's that many differences. One difference I do notice is girls and people that identify as female, they might talk about this more openly amongst their friends, which adds a whole new layer of challenges. Sometimes when you're talking about a group that two people in that group are talking with each other and then they're talking with their friends and that tends to happen more within girl groups. However, when I was doing the research for my second book, the middle School book, the challenges that kids were facing in relationships, it didn't matter. It didn't matter what gender they were. In fact, that was the reason. So I have a lot of stories and quotes in that book and none of the quotes are attributed to a name or a gender because I found it didn't matter. So it's just a quote from a middle school student because I didn't see that there was a huge amount of differences. So the conflicts were there. How they played out might be a little different, but they were struggling with the same sort of things.

[27:26] Karin: That's so interesting. And did you find that girls seemed more interested in joining a group?

[27:35] Jessica: No, I think for boys they were equally wanting to have close friends and find their fit, so they had the same struggles. When a friendship suddenly ended, it was not very different. So I didn't find a ton of changes there. Believe it or not that I think in middle school, in their own unique way, I found that students were trying to find a right fit and that sometimes was a messy trial and error process with a lot of changes. But I found that both across all genders.

[28:10] Karin: Yeah. Because it doesn't surprise me that boys also struggle. But it does surprise me that they would be willing to actually join a group and talk about it. Because it seems like those messages so early on that you're. Not supposed to talk about your feelings and have these social needs or whatever it is that that seems to so often be something that girls are given permission to do but boys are not.

[28:35] Jessica: Girls were definitely more willing to chat out loud but what I would do is also give them so we chat in small groups but I'd also give time with this little slip of paper and a little question. And I found that's sometimes where boys really opened up was when they weren't sharing something out loud but they were able to write something down. And that's where I got some of the best feedback I had, especially from boys.

[29:03] Karin: That's really good to know. Yeah. If it can be a little bit more private then they might open up a little bit more.

[29:09] Jessica: Yeah, great.

[29:11] Karin: So how about the pandemic? How has that affected friendship?

[29:17] Jessica: In a huge way? Of course, we're still navigating the impact of that because here we are at a time of life where kids really do want to connect and there's more weight in their friendships and then they're pulled out of that. So that was really challenging. And when I talk to teachers, they are noticing that kids were almost two years behind socially. However, I'm so hopeful, I feel like kids, they're catching up. They're catching up and these are skills that we learn with practice. They had a couple of years in some places without practice. I am so hopeful that kids will get back on track and they will learn these skills and they'll catch right up. But that was pretty detrimental to kids and friendship. And because there tends to be a lot of changes in friendship anyway, what was really challenging is when they were so pulled away from their friends, they really didn't know where these friendships stood. So when they all came back and they were quite different because for some kids that was a significant portion of their life that they were maybe stuck at home. They didn't know where those friendships stood. So that felt really challenging. But I'm so positive as I feel like kids are they're going to catch up and they're going to reconnect. It's taking some longer than others, but this will happen.

[30:40] Karin: Yeah, there's so much happening in the brain at that stage, so much growth. So I can imagine that yeah, given the opportunity, they really can catch up. So let's go back to these ten truths. Maybe you can tell us about those.

[31:01] Jessica: Sure. And these were some truths that I would share with kids that participated in my friendship program because I found they're truths that we learn over the course of our lives. But if we let kids know earlier, sometimes it just helps smooth the road a little bit. So let's see. I shared one of the truths, which is friendships have different phases and change over time. And I'm looking at my list. Here another. Friendship truth is our healthiest, friendships feel safe and accepting. And this is one that again becomes real important for those preteen years where we want to connect so badly that sometimes we might choose friendships that aren't very healthy or feeling safe. So I talk. About what does emotional safety feel like and know that at that age when everyone is still learning and growing and changing, it's sometimes hard to find, which leads to another friendship truth, which close friends are hard to find. So that's another truth that close friends are hard to find. Another truth is everybody's learning friendship skills at a different pace. So especially with younger kids, I like to talk about a lot of the skills that go into friendship. And there's a lot of them, if we think about it, we're talking about we have to communicate well, we have to listen well, we have to cooperate and be honest and be respectful. So that's a lot of skills that young kids learn over time. And sometimes conflict happens because of lack of skills on each side. So one kid might be strong in one area, the other is weak and vice versa. And so they're ensued like conflict. So I'd like to talk about these skills because this gets us back to what I talked about earlier, is as kids grow and change, they're really different people as they are and when they get to the young adult years. And so I don't think any of us want to be judged on some of our behaviors when we were kids and preteens. So just helping parents remind their kids that, hey, this is probably not who this kid is, this is just maybe he's struggling in this area doesn't mean they have to be close friends. They might need to put some boundaries in place. But helping them realize that this comes down to a lot of skill sometimes.

[33:23] Karin: And that's a great reminder because again, my daughter had said recently that there was this kid that she just could not stand in middle school and had a lot of conflict with. And she says that now, actually, he's pretty cool, I really like him and we've become friends. And so I could imagine that that's exactly what was happening is this kid just didn't have the skills yet.

[33:49] Jessica: Yeah, and sometimes one of the benefits of being in person in school is kids are learning to get along. So it takes time. And we all have people that we initially might not really like, but sometimes the more time we spend with that person, we both grow and change in different ways. So we might see them differently a few years down the road. So I love that she had that experience and she got there because that happens pretty commonly.

[34:21] Karin: Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. So are there any other truths that you want to talk about?

[34:26] Jessica: Oh, gosh, okay, one, let's see. There's a lot of them, but one I will finish with is you choose the friendships you want to grow. Sometimes kids don't realize that they can put more energy into certain relationships and less in others. And I always preface that to do that with kindness. But they can choose. If a friendship really doesn't feel that great, they can choose to put less energy in that friendship or they might choose to share maybe less about themselves if it feels like an unsafe relationship and really put energy in other relationships. So letting kids know that they have some control there and they have some power that they can choose to grow certain friendships and maybe keep others more in that general friendship category instead of close friends just by the behaviors that they share in those friendships.

[35:17] Karin: Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. What comes up for me is thinking about how building trust, I would think it would be a really important skill and maybe a little bit tricky, but is that something that you help kids with?

[35:34] Jessica: Yeah. And it's funny because I have this friendship quiz that I share and that is one of the most common questions that they feel like even good friends they can't trust. The reason is, again, because these are kids, their prefrontal cortex isn't fully formed. It is really hard to hold a secret. It's almost like giving a kid a piece of candy and asking them not to eat that candy. So I found that that is a skill, again, that takes time and practice and development to get to the point where they really are able to hold that information. What they're doing at age eight is going to be very different from age 14 with that secret they were shared. So helping kids know, again, getting back to our close friends, those are the ones that we feel like we actually might want to share some deeper parts of ourselves that we might not share with friends. We haven't developed that level of trust yet because that takes time and it takes maturity to really share a lot of personal stuff about ourselves. With my younger kids, I don't want to teach them to be closed off, but just to realize that that's a skill that's learned over time how to hold somebody's information in a safe space.

[36:55] Karin: Yeah, I can imagine that kids are impulsive when they haven't developed that part of their brain, like you said. And I imagine they also really need to be observant of who's really worthy of my trust, who is someone that I think could hold a secret. And that takes some real perception. Someone has to be perceptive to really pick that up.

[37:22] Jessica: Absolutely. And in those middle school years, they're looking for more closeness. So like, sharing deeper parts of ourselves is one way that they do that. But sometimes that level of trust hasn't been built in that friendship yet. So that causes a lot of conflict and drama in the middle school because people might be sharing some things they really didn't want shared in a wider circle too early on in friendships. But if we step back, the reason that's happening again is they really want to develop these close friendships and part of that is sharing information about ourselves. So yeah, just talking that through with kids, helping them know that it takes time to build that trust and it happens step by step over time.

[38:07] Karin: Yeah. How can parents help their kids through these challenges?

[38:14] Jessica: One thing I think is just so healing is when we feel heard and our emotions are validated. So as parents we can really take what they're saying seriously and just be a grounded sounding board for them, acknowledge that things are hard and they are uncomfortable and letting them know that that's all okay. And so if we can be their emotion coach, just helping them navigate these big emotions, put words to what they're experiencing because as humans, it's so healing when we start to put words to what we're experiencing and that then causes some realizations about the situation, we start to organize those and figure out our way forward. I know for me sometimes I want to just jump in there and fix. So I'm always trying to just hold my tongue, ground myself, breathe and just listen and really try to understand what they are going through. And by doing that, I'm giving them the space just to share openly and process and process all that.

[39:22] Karin: Yeah. That emotional connection is absolutely fundamental for our relationships with our kids. But as kids start to talk about these issues with their parents, how can parents increase their understanding of what might be happening in their world?

[39:44] Jessica: Yeah, and I think it's important for parents to know we always are just hearing one side of the story, even if we're getting a lot, which sometimes we don't get a lot of information, especially when they become early teens, we're just getting one side. So to keep that in mind because sometimes we can have a big emotional reaction but we're not getting a full picture. Yes, we're getting our kids picture and that's so valid, but there's a whole nother story that we don't understand. So keeping that in mind, I think staying grounded is one of the most important things we can do that'll keep kids coming back to sharing with us. Because as soon as we go off on our own emotional roller coaster or as soon as we jump in with some inappropriate advice, we're shutting down the conversation and they're not going to come to us anymore. So it's hard in the early teen teen years to keep that open. And the way that we're going to keep that communication open is if they feel like if they come to us, it's safe and they're going to feel heard. So that takes some practice for us as parents to really watch our own emotions, watch our own reactions, so they feel safe enough to share.

[40:55] Karin: Yeah. And for your books now they're meant to be read by the kids, is that right?

[41:02] Jessica: Yes.

[41:05] Karin: And do you ever recommend that parents read them along with them so that they can get on board.

[41:10] Jessica: I always do. One, because they're short and easy to read and two, because then you've got some common language. And by reading the stories, because the books are filled with stories that I heard from kids, it kind of gets us back in that mindset. It's been a long time since we were preteens probably. So it gets us right back into so what are some of the struggles that kids are having so we can better understand what is their world? What is their day to day?

[41:40] Karin: How receptive are kids to these books? Do you find that they see these books and they are really drawn to them because they're struggling and they want to have some tools? Or do you find that parents have to kind of help introduce them or maybe sell them a little bit on the idea?

[42:02] Jessica: It usually is the parent or the librarian that is putting the book in their hands at a time where they're struggling. So that's how it happens and that's perfect. That's what I intended for that. For instance, my first book is the first chapter is How Healthy is My Friendship? And it's a friendship quiz. The feedback I've heard from families is like, that's perfect. We just needed a place to start to dig right into this situation. I definitely write in that way. I write in a way that is going to pull kids in. I've got Quizzes. And my second book has choose your own adventure scenarios, all middle school based. So I see these book if everything is going swimmingly in their lives, they're probably not going to pick this up. But when they hit bumps in the road, it's a resource that parents can give them that will talk directly about what it is that's going on in them. So I also don't intend kids to read my books front to back. So the middle school book has different chapters and if they're struggling with, say, clicks in groups, they can go right to that chapter. Or they're struggling with some gossip stuff, they can go right to that chapter. So that's why I almost describe them as guidebooks. They go right to the heart of what it might be that they're struggling with.

[43:22] Karin: Oh, that's great. Yeah, it really sounds like it speaks their language.

[43:28] Jessica: I hope so. That's what I try. And so that's why so much of it is their own words too. I love quotes and stories from kids.

[43:35] Karin: Yeah. So as we approach the end of our time together, I ask my standard question of everyone and that is what role does love play in the work that you do?

[43:51] Jessica: Such a big role, I think for me to help kids learn to love themselves and to be in relationships with others that eventually the skills that I'm talking about feed into their love relationships later in life. So I see it as all connected. These are all just skills and resources that we start learning when we're young with our parents and with our friendships that then grow into our partnerships later in life. So, yeah, love feeds all of it.

[44:28] Karin: Yeah. I think that's such an important concept in all of this is that they're learning skills that are going to benefit them for the rest of their lives. And I know some adults that could probably benefit from reading some of the books too.

[44:42] Jessica: I hear that often. I'm like, oh, jeez, she's, I totally forgot about that communication strategy. Yeah, it was a great reminder for me too, writing these, like, oh, yes, this is the stuff that we strive to be in our relationships.

[44:58] Karin: Yeah. I wish that some of these skills were more a compulsory part of our education, that we could learn some of these as we're growing, and I think it could benefit a lot of people.

[45:12] Jessica: Oh, for sure.

[45:13] Karin: Yeah. So how can people learn more about you and your books?

[45:18] Jessica: The easiest way is my website, which is Jessicaspeers Peer.com, and that has links off to my social media and links off to where the books are sold. And I've got a lot of just resources on the site on all these topics. I love to write about social, emotional topics and family connection. So lots of articles and resources available there too.

[45:39] Karin: Great. And of course, we'll put all of that in the show notes. Well, thank you for joining us today and sharing all of your knowledge. This is a really important topic, so I really appreciate it.

[45:52] Jessica: Thank you for having me, Karin. It was so fun to chat with you and thanks for all, your know, helping families stay connected and cultivating love.

[46:00] Karin: Well, thank you.

Outro:

Karin: Thanks for joining us today on Love Is Us. If you liked the show, I would so appreciate it if you left me a review. If you have questions and would like to follow me on social media, you can find me on Instagram, where I'm theloveandconnectioncoach. Special thanks to Tim Gorman for my

music, Aly Shaw for my artwork, and Ross Burdick for tech and editing assistance. Again, I'm so glad you joined us today because the best way to bring more love into your life and into the world is to be loved. The best way to be loved is to love yourself and those around you. Let's learn and be inspired together.